# Really dumb college athletes? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 28, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759 "2010-08-28T03:23:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/21 "2010-08-29T19:17:43Z")
IMO major college sports are a racket. The students don’t get an actual education. Per NCAA rules, they don’t get any money to live on, can’t even be taken out to meals by anyone affiliated with the school. Meanwhile, the school makes hundreds of thousands of dollars off them. Not. Cool. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/22 "2010-08-29T20:23:26Z")
> [@Hunter\_Hawk](#): > > I west to RPI, and if you looked down the ice-hockey roster, the players’ majors looked like > > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing > Aerospace Engineering > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing > Marketing What’s up fellow RPI buddy! RPI has a marketing program? Huh…when I was there, most of the hockey players were management majors. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Universe_Lashes_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/23 "2010-08-29T20:39:56Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > IMO major college sports are a racket. > > The students don’t get an actual education. > Per NCAA rules, they don’t get any money to live on, can’t even be taken out to meals by anyone affiliated with the school. > > Meanwhile, the school makes hundreds of thousands of dollars off them. > > Not. Cool. Some college football programs make money. A few college basketball programs are profitable. Every other sport though costs the school money. There are only a handful of college athletic programs that are profitable overall, most of them spend a lot more money than they take in. As far as getting an education, athletes are in the same boat as every other college student. You can get an education if you want to, but it’s not mandatory. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Universe_Lashes_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/24 "2010-08-29T20:42:09Z")
> [@](#): > > The “problem” he refers to was the revelation that occurred during a hearing in Judge Steve Martin’s Hamilton County, Ohio, courtroom last month regarding delinquent child support payments in excess of $110,000. James Brooks could not read the court documents; this after graduating from Warner Robins High School in Georgia in 1977 and after spending at least four years at Auburn University in Alabama. > > When asked by the judge how he graduated from Auburn, Brooks said, “I didn’t have to go to class.” [http://diverseeducation.com/article/10/](http://diverseeducation.com/article/10/) ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/25 "2010-08-29T22:08:46Z")
There have been some solid academic studies on this topic. Probably the best and broadest of these are two books, one by Bowen and Levin and one by Bowen and Shulman. > **[Reclaiming the Game: College Sports and Educational Values (The William G. Bowen...](https://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-Game-College-Educational-William/dp/0691123144)** > > Reclaiming the Game: College Sports and Educational Values (The William G. Bowen Series, 40) \[Bowen, William G., Levin, Sarah A., Shulman, James L., Campbell, Colin G., Pichler, Susanne C., Kurzweil, Martin A.\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on... > **[The Game of Life: College Sports and Educational Values (The William G. Bowen...](https://www.amazon.com/Game-Life-College-Educational-William/dp/0691096198)** > > The Game of Life: College Sports and Educational Values (The William G. Bowen Series, 35) \[James L. Shulman, William G. Bowen, Lauren A. Meserve, Roger C. Schonfeld\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. The Game of Life: College... The ultimate conclusion is that recruited athletes tend to be weak students at admission, and then under-perform their entering credentials (a football player with 1000 SATs is likely to perform worse than a non-football player with the same score). This is true both at liberal arts colleges and Division I. To a lesser extent, this holds among non-recruited athletes. They do note that the problem is focused primarily in the high profile sports (football, basketball, and I think ice hockey). ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/26 "2010-08-29T22:59:42Z")
It’s a mixed bag and looking at statistics does little really tell the story. There are plenty of terrible student-athletes who coast and get special treatment. There are plenty of terrible student-students who coast and get passed through by taking ridiculously easy class loads and/or buying answers and cheating. If you don’t want to study and you want to stay in school, for sports or to party and do drugs, you can usually find a way to get through. Colleges generally speaking allow the students to take as much as they wish from it, it’s relatively easy to cheat on homework and take large lecture classes where having someone else take the exam is essentially un-policible. With a little money, some close friends and a real aversion to actual work just about anyone can graduate college if you don’t care what the degree is in. Stories like Dexter Manley’s are great reads, but there are countless regular students who graduate with sub-high school level knowledge. The athletics department, for all it’s flaws, does allow poor and underachieving students an opportunity to get an education that they otherwise wouldn’t get. A higher proportion of those who fit that description probably fail, but that’s not really the point. Look at it from the other side, what proportion of socio-economically comparable high school students who _don’t get into college due to athletics_ get degrees? Get educations? Stay out of prison? Lead productive lives and careers? If 50% of athletes get educations and have careers, as opposed to say 70% of regular students who entered with sound academic credentials, I’d say that that 50% is a success story. Because perhaps 30% of that 50% would otherwise be a drain on society in one way or another. Additionally a proportion of those athletes who fall into the failing 50% are probably better off for their experience than otherwise too. They’ve been exposed to a better way of life and learned the value of hard work. They’ve seen ideals to strive for in college and networked with people from all walks of life to broaden their horizons and better acclimate themselves to a less isolated life in the ghetto. Ask yourself how many of those athletes who fail out of college are _still_ better off than their High School peers who never even got a chance to go to college and live on a college campus. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/27 "2010-08-29T23:30:34Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > > [@Animastryfe](#): > > > > My friend at Queens university in Canada told me that many players in the Rugby team are engineering majors; their biggest player is a physics major. > > Rugby Union’s always had a strong association with the educated, though. As a school sport rugby union is mostly confined here to the private schools. As a result its university players tend to study medicine, law, finance, engineering etc. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/28 "2010-08-30T00:51:49Z")
Andy Katzenmoyer. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/29 "2010-08-30T01:02:00Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Andy Katzenmoyer. There is suspicion that Katzenmoyer got some preferential treatment and his grades boosted, but I’ve never heard any stories about him being especially dumb. Being a cheater, whether he actually was or not, doesn’t make you dumb. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/30 "2010-08-30T01:14:47Z")
I always thought Vince Young was a great example. Got a 6 on the Wonderlic (inadequate denials notwithstanding). Even listening to him talk makes you wonder how he made it through three years at Texas. When did they decide to give a break in college admissions to certain types of players? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/31 "2010-08-30T01:36:31Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > I always thought Vince Young was a great example. Got a 6 on the Wonderlic (inadequate denials notwithstanding). Even listening to him talk makes you wonder how he made it through three years at Texas. > > When did they decide to give a break in college admissions to certain types of players? They’ve been getting help ever since there was a college system. Before football there was probably plenty of preferential given to sons of Presidents and other political and marketable wannabe students. Universities have been competing since they were invented, it just so happens that nowadays sports gets you in the papers more than everything else. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/32 "2010-08-30T01:56:02Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > When did they decide to give a break in college admissions to certain types of players? My bet would be 1906, when the NCAA was formed, and college administrations took control (along with ticket revenue) of what had become a huge business away from the student associations who had been running it. Ain’t nothin’ new here, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/33 "2010-08-30T02:07:20Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Universities have been competing since they were invented,… Strictly speaking, they could only have been competing since the second one was invented. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/34 "2010-08-30T03:03:13Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > RPI has a marketing program? Huh…when I was there, most of the hockey players were management majors. It could very well have been management; it started with an “m” and was in the school that everybody else pointed-and-laughed at. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/35 "2010-08-30T03:55:38Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There are really only two college sports in which this is an issue: football and men’s basketball. > > **I’d be willing to bet that. if you excluded these sports, you’d find that the graduation rates of varsity athletes of BOTH genders is about as good as that of the student body as a whole- perhaps even a little HIGHER.** > Football and men’s basketball are different for several reasons. > > First, a high school baseball or ice hockey star with poor grades doesn’t NEED to go to college to have a shot at playing professionally. He can play in the minor leagues and work his way up without pretending to be a real college student. But to have a shot at making it to the NFL, a football player almost HAS to go to college. There are more high school players jumping directly to the NBA today, of course, but many kids who aspire to play in the NBA still feel that playing for a top college program gives them their best shot. > > Second, the students who compete in sports like diving, swimming, lacrosse or golf tend to be rich or upper middle class. Such kids probably went to excellent high schools and probably perform well academically in college. > > Third, football and basketball are big revenue sports, and the coaches are under HUGE pressure to succeed. The women’s archery coach isn’t likely to be fired if his team wins just over 50% of its events every year, but a football or men’s basketball coach WILL be fired if he doesn’t win consistently. That means football and basketball coaches have much more incentive to cut corners and bring in elite athletes, regardless of whether they’re college material academically. (my bolding) You’ve got it right, THAT statistic (graduation rates for non-basketball non-football) could be really nice. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/36 "2010-08-30T04:00:15Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > > [@Animastryfe](#): > > > > My friend at Queens university in Canada told me that many players in the Rugby team are engineering majors; their biggest player is a physics major. > > Rugby Union’s always had a strong association with the educated, though. I went to a seminar one term with David Kirk. One of the smartest people I have ever been in a room with. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/37 "2010-08-30T14:46:19Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > I always thought Vince Young was a great example. Got a 6 on the Wonderlic (inadequate denials notwithstanding). Even listening to him talk makes you wonder how he made it through three years at Texas. > > When did they decide to give a break in college admissions to certain types of players? At least a hundred years ago, if you believe a famous James Thurber short story. In it is the account of an Ohio State football player who “although he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter”. In class one day he is called on by the professor to name a form of transportation. Although the player is given broad hints, thinks very very hard and turns red, he cannot come up with an answer. His fellow students, aware that he’s a star on the offensive line, try to help out by making train noises (one doing a fine imitation of a train whistle). Eventually he is coaxed into responding “Train” and everyone relaxes. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/38 "2010-08-30T15:24:57Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > For the flip side of the OP, this [1988 SI story](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067704/index.htm) about UWisconsin DE Don Davey is fascinating reading. His wiki lists him as having a 7 year pro career, which is frankly longer than I would have imagined, reading the article. Wow, awesome article, thanks. By the way, Al-Abdulla sent me scurrying from an engineering degree to a computer science degree in two classes. Still turned out okay,I guess. I’m no Don Davey though. 🙂 Glad I wasn’t going to Wisconsin during the Morton era. Unfortunately my family had season tickets at the time so I still had to suffer through it. ---
**Author:** ![Reloy3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c68b51/32.png) [@Reloy3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reloy3)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/39 "2010-08-30T17:37:03Z")
2 anecdotes from my undergraduate days: Basketball wunderkind, made the cover of Sports Illustrated, and then failed miserably in the pros and ended up playing basketball in France, of all places. I shared an anthropology class with him, never saw him once in class, and I was in line behind him when we sold our textbooks back to the bookstore. His was still in the plastic wrapping. Nevertheless, he passed, and wasn’t some sort of savant. I was taking some secondary education classes in a summer semester, and had a professor who specilized in teaching reading. One day we showed up to class to find a note that class was cancelled for 1 week, then taught by a TA for the next week. Found out later that he was special tutoring two Junior basketball players who transfered from Jr. College but were functionally illiterate. I did have athlete friends who were great students. I was in the honors program with a skiier and a couple of rugby players, and had a few football playing friends who were wicked smart. I was even more impressed with them because their practice schedules were very demanding, but they managed to keep up with the academics well. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759/40 "2010-08-30T21:04:15Z")
There’s a reason why [Myron Rolle](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/sports/ncaafootball/25rolle.html?_r=1) gets NY Times articles. In another I remember reading, he was told BY HIS COACH (I forget where or at what point) he was paying too much attention to school. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-dumb-college-athletes/551759.md?page=3)