# Really stupid question about movie and TV credits **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 12, 2000, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256 "2000-07-12T01:11:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/1 "2000-07-12T01:11:45Z")
I may be the only one who notices this (I tend to notice weird stuff), but when watching the credits of movies and TV shows, I often see something like this: “Produced by John Smith & David Brown and Joe Black” OR “Written by John Smith & David Brown and Joe Black and Mary Johnson” And several other variations… What is the difference between using “and” and the ampersand ( & ) symbol? Or putting 2 names together? Or separating them into several lines? Who goes first? Who has to be last? Why do they use the word “and” _and_ the ampersand together? Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![SarumanRex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@SarumanRex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarumanRex)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/2 "2000-07-12T01:29:36Z")
Not a stupid question at all. Go to this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=28507](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=28507) and scroll down to the post by Cervaise for an answer to your question. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/3 "2000-07-12T01:32:22Z")
In writing credits, the ampersand means the scriptwriters worked as a team. The “and” means a writer was brought in to work on the original script. So, if Moe Kaufmann and Mary Hart wrote the original script together, and Tom Shakspeare did a full rewrite (leaving only the character names), the writing credits would be: Written by Moe Kaufmann & Mary Hart and Tom Shakespeare. (and this doesn’t take into account Robert Town’s being brought in afterwards and add all the jokes) ---
**Author:** ![tshirts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@tshirts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tshirts)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/4 "2000-07-12T02:12:51Z")
One thing to remember is a lot of times the real writer is not listed at all. A full rewrite may be uncredited, for many reasons. On the other hand, a slight rewrite by a big name can get the true original author bumped entirely, or listed as under Concept by. Hollywood screws writers more than any other category. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/5 "2000-07-12T16:08:45Z")
THANK YOU!! 🙂 That’s pretty much what I figured (2 worked together and then 1 more came and did some on his own). Thanks again! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/6 "2000-07-12T19:13:00Z")
**SarumanRex:** Thanks for the reference. It’s nice to know somebody’s noticing. 🙂 > [@](#): > > One thing to remember is a lot of times the real writer is not listed at all. A full rewrite may be uncredited, for many reasons. On the other hand, a slight rewrite by a big name can get the true original author bumped entirely, or listed as under Concept by. Hollywood screws writers more than any other category. True, true. There’s an old joke: “Did you hear about the Polish movie starlet? She slept with the writer.” The WGA is, to be fair, working hard to get writers more respect, but they’re fighting against a hundred years of traditional marginalization, so wish them luck. Example of the original writer being bumped: John Ridley, a TV guy who’s been on the cusp of breaking through for what must be a frustratingly long time, ([filmography](http://us.imdb.com/Name?Ridley,+John+(I))), wrote a script about Desert Storm soldiers who find a treasure map. David O. Russell, a more established director ([filmography](http://us.imdb.com/Name?Russell,+David+O.)), pulled the script out of the studio’s “in development” pile and rewrote it substantially. On the finished film, _Three Kings_, Ridley ended up with a “story by” credit; Russell got the “screenplay” credit. Similar example: Ron Moore and Brannon Braga, two “Star Trek” writers, worked on the script for _Mission: Impossible 2_ for a while. Perfectionist Tom Cruise kept requesting changes; in the end, he brought in Script Doctor extraordinaire [Robert Towne](http://us.imdb.com/Name?Towne,+Robert), who had also worked on the original. Towne basically threw everything out and started over, and got the credit; Moore and Braga ended up with a “story by” credit and a bad reputation for not cooperating with Cruise. Oddball example: Marc Norman and Tom Stoppard shared the “best original screenplay” Oscar for _Shakespeare in Love._ However, their credit was “Norman **and** Stoppard,” not “&,” meaning they wrote separately. In reality, Norman came up with the basic idea and the outline; Stoppard came along afterward and added all the wit and cleverly referential dialogue, but didn’t change the structure, meaning Norman could still share writing credit. (Screenwriter rule: Story **is** structure.) For those in the know, seeing two writers who had never actually worked together in the slightest standing together in front of the Academy “sharing” the Oscar was more than a little weird. But back to the OP: You also asked about producers, which hardly anybody has mentioned. That’s a whole different ball game, and works under a whole different set of rules from writers. What does “executive” producer mean? What does a producer **do,** anyway? All good questions. I’ll let you know when I’m ready to publish the book that explains what Hollywood producers do, and what all the titles mean… ---
**Author:** ![Jett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@Jett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jett)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/7 "2000-07-12T19:34:27Z")
Similarly, Quentin Tarantino’s screenplay for “Natural Born Killers” was so completely changed (he blames the Director AND the Producers)that he no longer desired a writing credit and was credited for “Story”. > [@](#): > > That’s a whole different ball game, and works under a whole different set of rules from writers. What does “executive” producer mean? What does a producer do, anyway? All good questions. I’ll let you know when I’m ready to publish the book that explains what Hollywood producers do, and what all the titles mean… My understanding is that generally, an Executive Producer provides little beyond money and connections. Producers and Production Supervisors actually do legwork in the making of the film, Production Assistants do the grunt and gopher work. This does not seem to be the case in music production. Does anyone have anything more solid? I’m not sure what an Associate Producer does. Maybe they take all of the negative feedback for the Executive Producer so they don’t get cranky and pull out their money and influence. Just a theory. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/8 "2000-07-12T22:08:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Does anyone have anything more solid? Actually, yes, I was being facetious. I’m working on a Feature Essay for my site, “How to read the credits.” It includes the details on the writer credit, as well as explaining what all the various producers do. That part alone is running almost a thousand words. Should be done and posted soon (fingers crossed)… ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/9 "2000-07-13T02:16:43Z")
Here’s one for ya. A meeting took place with Robert DeNiro, Martin Scorcese and Stephen Bach, who was at the time the head of Worldwide Production for United Artists. Bach’s assertion was that the script he had read for “Raging Bull” was unmakeable. David Field, Bach’s co-Head of Production said, in reaction to the Jake LaMotta character, " He’s a cockroach". ``` Robert DeNiro responded, " He is not a cockroach". The script that was finally approved, and the one that was shot off of, had the writers initials in small type in the corner. No credit was ever arbitrated for the script, and no money was paid for the re-write. The initials were " RdN ". The screenwriter who did the initial ( and HEAVILY re-written script ) got writer's credit on the movie. Source : "Final Cut: Dreams and Disaster In The Making of 'Heaven's Gate' ". PP 162-166. ``` Like the DGA ( Director’s Guild of America ), the WGA fights hard for proper credit and titling. Such things are negotiated points in a deal, and not taken lightly. As weird as they may read on the screen, they read that way for very good reasons. Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-question-about-movie-and-tv-credits/25256/10 "2000-07-13T02:19:05Z")
And, not that I’m bitter, but I fight like HELL for my credits on some jobs I shoot. I deliver the best I can, every day, and don’t think it’s unreasonable to want the credit for it. Also, it’s supposedly a guarantee in my union contract…