# Really stupid Star Trek question. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727 "2004-08-13T18:44:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Mad\_Hermit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5ac83/32.png) [@The\_Mad\_Hermit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mad_Hermit)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/21 "2004-08-14T02:04:24Z")
The short answer is that the cloaking field works both ways. The ship’s own targeting systems, necessary to hit such a small target in the vastness of space, are blinded by the cloaking field just like the enemy’s sensors. Decloaking is necessary to allow fire control to acquire the target. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/22 "2004-08-14T03:00:04Z")
Ok, so explain cloak and dagger? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/23 "2004-08-14T06:34:38Z")
Another non-canonical answer (from a novel? comic book?) was that the cloaking field itself was not something you want to shoot a torpedo or phaser blast through – it was highly explosive. And since it was very close to the hull of the cloaked ship, shooting through your own cloak could detonate it, and destroy your own ship. Thus, it was also a danger that if your were shot while cloaked, you were toast. I like this idea, but it’s not canonical. Also, in Trek 6, Chang’s Bird of Prey _did_ slightly decloak when firing. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/24 "2004-08-14T06:36:58Z")
The thing that always bugged me about cloaked ships is that if a cloaking device uses that much power, it’s got to be giving off something. Heat, radiation, something. I believe they use this several times, particulary in ST6. It’s nemises that really pisses me off in this regard. A ship that fricken huge which can fire while cloaked has got to be giving off a huge amout of some kind of radiation, but the Enterprise apparently never tries to look for it. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/25 "2004-08-14T10:06:03Z")
There’s no one thing that pisses me off about Nemesis. It was an entire gestalt of suckitude. One of the big things for me was that it didn’t have proper Romulans, but petulant teenagers with funny clothes and makeup. I want my scary, ruthless bastards goddammit! As for the radiation thing, it’s conceivable that the Scimitar could somehow store the energy temporarily and emit it later when it was safe. I really don’t think Berman and Braga use any neurons on that sort of thing though - or that they even have a neuron to share between them. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/26 "2004-08-14T22:29:22Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > It’s nemises that really pisses me off in this regard. A ship that fricken huge which can fire while cloaked has got to be giving off a huge amout of some kind of radiation, but the Enterprise apparently never tries to look for it. Well, that contrasts with the way that usually, in TNG+ Treks where any sort cloak has to be dealt with, the engineering dude/gal DOES figure out JUST in the nick of time exactly what secondary signature would be produced by his kind of cloak, because of its emission of bulldada particles, and how we casually have onboard a piece of equipment that has exactly the sort of farfufflertron sensor that you need to home on that, once you reconfigure the doubletalk generators. IOW, the folks of the Enterprise are either ultragifted geniuses, highly skilled, witty, brilliant in command, physically tough as iron and probably well-endowed where it counts, equipped with the ultimate technology… or they’re totally lame wusses dimmer than a suitcase full of burnt-out 5-watt bulbs and equipped with explode-in-yo-face junk. And it all depends on what corner the scriptwriter has contrived to paint himself into… ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/27 "2004-08-14T22:51:35Z")
Isn’t this Romulan type cloaking device the same or very similar to the cloaking device that the _Predator_ aliens use? IIRC they were capable of using their weapons while being cloaked. Apparently the Predators are years ahead of the Romulans. Who else has this technology? Besides the dreaded and feared _Montoyans_ of course. You know **Inigo** now that you have told everyone this classified information what you’re gonna have to do next. :eek: You’d think the Borg would’ve assimilated enough to at least figured out how to develop a cloak, if not actually stolen the idea. Starfleet had a cloak on the _Defiant_ IIRC. Maybe it was a black market purchase? ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/28 "2004-08-14T23:00:24Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > Isn’t this Romulan type cloaking device the same or very similar to the cloaking device that the _Predator_ aliens use? > IIRC they were capable of using their weapons while being cloaked. Apparently the Predators are years ahead of the Romulans. Who else has this technology? > Besides the dreaded and feared _Montoyans_ of course. You know **Inigo** now that you have told everyone this classified information what you’re gonna have to do next. :eek: > > You’d think the Borg would’ve assimilated enough to at least figured out how to develop a cloak, if not actually stolen the idea. Starfleet had a cloak on the _Defiant_ IIRC. Maybe it was a black market purchase? The borg certainly have assimialted cloaking technology, but have ne need for it. They _want_ to be seen. They want you to know that they are there, and are going to assimilate you, and (in their minds) their is nothing you can do about it. Also, the fact that they can adapt really eliminates the need to not be seen. Plus, they can travel almost anwhere in an instant with transwarp, so they can get away so quick they don’t need to hide and run away, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/29 "2004-08-14T23:08:25Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > . > Plus, and most damning… _why can’t ships fire their photon torpedoes_?!? How much energy would a missile launcher need? Quite a bit to chase something that is going a large portion of the speed of light. Of course, they seem to imply that PT’s have their own propulsion. Who can say? Federation ships in VI are made of [diamond plate](http://www.jfreeman.com/metal_sheeting.html#diamondplate) , and Special Ops. officers have to use flashcards instead of some kind of future Powerpoint presneation. I always assumed that cloaking tech was a constant technological battle of detection and evasion. The cloaked ship in STVI was hot stuff, but the next generation of detection systems spots it like a candle, so on and so on up until the latest generation. As a viewer, we get to see a cool de-cloaking effect since we really cant’s see that all that happens is the computer’s sensors picking up a spectrograph line in the X-ray band (or just substitute the ST particle of the month club like the writers do) that says a Klingon battlecruise type 8 has just fired 6 torpedoes. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/30 "2004-08-14T23:16:22Z")
**bouv** Maybe…but I bet they’d have done a lot better if they had used it in at least a couple of cases I can think of. Can you recall ever seeing any Romulans assimilated by the Borg? ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/31 "2004-08-15T00:07:54Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Cloaked ships have to decloak to use their transporter as well (cite: “Trials and Tribble-ations”), not just fire phasers or photon torpedoes. Nope. ST 4, _The Voyage Home_\* clearly demonstrates that Klingon Birds of Prey do not have to decloak to use the transporters. I’d buy the “sheilds and weapons require too much power” thing except for one little detail: ST ships seem to be able to “divert” power to whatever system requires it at the time. So, if I were commanding a cloaked ship and in action against, say the _Enterprise[_, I’d just say “get behind her, sut down the shields (I’m cloaked, and can’t be targeted), and drive, and hammer the bitch.” Unless there was an _enormous_ imbalance of throweight I’d expect to win. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/32 "2004-08-15T00:10:03Z")
Please excuse the crappy coding of the movie title. I meant \* and not \*\*. What? This is important to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/33 "2004-08-15T03:19:19Z")
The reason the BoP was able to do what it did is easily explained as it being on Earth. That would have allowed them to keep systems like the transporter and the cloak both operational without having to worry about other systems as they had no need to keep even the most rudimentary systems online as they were inside a gravity well and had a Class M atmosphere outside. Furthermore, the Defiant had to decloak to transport Dax and Sisko in the S5 episode of “Trials and Tribble-ations” which, if I remember correctly, aired in 1997, a good eleven years after _Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home_. Later episodes of shows usually trump earlier ones so I tend to think that ships having to decloak to transport is canon. Plus, the Defiant’s a good hundred years more advanced than the Bird of Prey in the movie so it doesn’t make sense for the more primitive model on board to be able to outperform something five or more generations more advanced. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/34 "2004-08-15T03:20:41Z")
Rereading my post, it’s coming off a little snarky to me but that wasn’t my intention. I apologize in advance if that is the way you took it, **Exgineer**. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/35 "2004-08-15T18:17:49Z")
> [@Steelerphan](#): > > The short answer is that the cloaking field works both ways. The ship’s own targeting systems, necessary to hit such a small target in the vastness of space, are blinded by the cloaking field just like the enemy’s sensors. Decloaking is necessary to allow fire control to acquire the target. That fits _Balance of Terror_ – the Enterprise was able to get an approximate position on the Romulans, and followed them on a parallel course. The Romulans weren’t sure at first whether they were detecting another ship or a “reflection” from their own cloak. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/36 "2004-08-15T22:39:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I suspect the real reason has much to do with the fact that cloaked ships pretty much correspond to WWII submarines. A submarine running “silent” can stay hidden but blowing tanks, popping up to periscope depth and letting loose a torpedo pretty much gives its location away. Terrible analogy… there is nothing that physically prevents a submarine from doing any of those things. Again, it doesn’t matter if the enemy detects you if he is dead five seconds later. > [@](#): > > Possible justification: a photon torp launched from “behind” the cloak would have to re-acquire its target once it emerged from it. False. Targeting and passive sensors work just fine while cloaked. > [@](#): > > Quite a bit to chase something that is going a large portion of the speed of light. You mean a few hundred meters per second? ST ships are slow, man. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/37 "2004-08-15T22:58:23Z")
_0.25c_ to _6069c_ is slow? You must use a radically different dictionary than I do. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/38 "2004-08-16T00:52:44Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > _0.25c_ to _6069c_ is slow? You must use a radically different dictionary than I do. Well, that’s another thing that confuses everything. Post-movies, with the expectation of showing “exterior” visuals, what is shown _does_ look like a few 100s of m/s at distances of a few 10s of Km. But that’s just because they believe the audience _wants_ “exteriors”. Yet at the same time we’re expected to believe that they are moving at a significant fraction of c during the battles. In a way, TOS was a little better in that, due to the limitations of production, you’d just have an interior shot of the bridge with Sulu or Chekov reading out “150 thousand Km and closing! 100 thousand Km and closing!” “Fire” “Direct hit, Sir… No effect!” That’s what anyone would really “see” in a starship battle. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/39 "2004-08-16T01:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > 0.25c to 6069c is slow? You must use a radically different dictionary than I do. I remember watching _Yesterday’s Enterprise_ and enjoying the sight of Federation and Klingon ships moving around like they were wallowing, sea-faring battlecruisers, and hearing the crew spit out ridiculously large numbers for the situation… Maybe in 400 years they change “kilometer” to mean “millimeter”. ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727/40 "2004-08-16T01:30:04Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > **bouv** Maybe…but I bet they’d have done a lot better if they had used it in at least a couple of cases I can think of. Can you recall ever seeing any Romulans assimilated by the Borg? In the _Voyager_ episode “Unity,” they discovered a colony of ex-Borg that included a Romulan. It’s probably fairly unlikely that that particular Romulan had the necessary knowledge to build a cloaking device, however. I seem to remember that in the 2nd-season TNG episode “Neutral Zone” the Romulans were investigating the disappearance of several of their colonlies, and that this was later attributed (in “Q Who”) to the Borg. That would imply at least that the Borg have assimilated large numbers of Romulans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/really-stupid-star-trek-question/259727.md?page=3)