# Reasons Africa is "lagging behind"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711 "2010-06-18T21:17:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/201 "2010-06-24T17:07:19Z")
Income =/= culture, equal incomes =/= equal opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/202 "2010-06-24T17:17:35Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Wrong. > > Not only are the authors’ research flawed, but your interpretation of their results is also flawed. > > They did not “control” for culture if because all 4 of their experiments were culturally loaded. No. They are each a comparison between the culturally-loaded and the culturally-neutral. That’s what I meant by “control for culture” - if culture were not an effect, there wouldn’t be a disparity. But there is. Internally, in each experiment. > [@](#): > > To properly account for culture bias, they would have needed to create a 5th experiment that was language-and-culture-free. No, that’s only one (simplistic) way of accounting for culture. Their way accounts for culture just fine. And it doesn’t address the in-experiment variance between in-group and out-group knowledge, as their experiments do. > [@](#): > > How convenient for them to omit pure spatial and mathematical reasoning which fits neatly into their so-called theory of intelligence based on culture. They designed an experiment to address what they saw as an easily-proved bias within the existing tests. They proved their case. That it doesn’t address those aspects you would like it to, or the strawman of their argument you would like to address, is of no moment. And like I said, there are very few tests that are free of educational/cultural knowledge bias. Even something as simple as a block test is easier for a kid who’s played with wooden blocks from birth vs a kid who has never had that mental exercise. Ditto the “what’s next in this sequence”-type questions - “Oh, the sequence is _understood_ to be left to right? Where does it say that in the question?”. Bias, everywhere. Look at the difference in performance between Western and African kids, with drawing vs wire. Culture, culture, culture. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/203 "2010-06-24T17:34:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They designed an experiment to address what they saw as an easily-proved bias within the existing tests. They proved their case. Everybody already knows that tests can be culturally biased. They didn’t have to create a study to prove that. What’s wrong was their conclusion by extrapolation: _“Race was unrelated to the g factor.”_ Did they create experiments proving that many existing tests have inherent cultural bias. Yes. Did they create experiments proving “_race was unrelated to the g factor?_” **NO!** Not with their particular testing methodology. Their conclusion is wrong and you add your own misinterpretation on top of it. > [@](#): > > Culture, culture, culture. How is the “culture” of low-income white children superior to high-income black children? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/204 "2010-06-24T18:14:10Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > WWhen people talk about women doing the hard dirty work while the men hang out and booze it up, they’re describing certain communities in Africa, and in Russia. And in Asia ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/205 "2010-06-24T18:17:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > IThe sprinting issue raises a separate point regarding respective populations. It is currently accepted common wisdom among many that the current domination of Oympic level sprinting events by West Africans or descendants of West Africans is a genetic trait. I am, barring serious evidence to the contrary, willing to entertain that hypothesis. However, I note that the only serious measure that is ever put forth is the number of sprinters from that (ancestral) region who win at the highest levels of competition. I have never seen any attempt to determine median sprinting speeds analyzed by ethnic group. What we seem to perceive regarding West African sprinting is that one group appears to produce a remarkable number of outliers for a particular phenomenon. In other words, I have never seen any evidence that West African descended people are faster sprinters on average, only that the group appears to produce the greatest number of exceptions. If that is our anchor point for accepting that separate ethnic groups display hierarchies of traits, then I am more likely to accept that separate groups provide the most outliers for any trait than that any group is genuinely better or worse on average. Its like how Brazilians are genetically superior soccer players. Its not just the outliers, the average Brazilian is a superior soccer player. In college we had an intramural intramural tournament covering several sports and the soccer match always went to whoever had the most genetically superior Brazilians. Its was like the rest of us were just standing still. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/206 "2010-06-24T18:21:23Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Cognitive ability is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for economic success. Obviously, if you have absurd economic policies it won’t matter how clever your population is. Do you think that it is possible that a lot of Africa is operating under some absurd economic principles? > [@](#): > > As for the ancient Egyptians, they were Mediterranean. I’m looking at a painting of some ancient pharoahs and they look pretty African to me. They might have been east Africans but the Romans didn’t become pharoah until much later. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/207 "2010-06-24T18:28:17Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Cognitive ability is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for economic success. Obviously, if you have absurd economic policies it won’t matter how clever your population is. > > As for the ancient Egyptians, they were Mediterranean. > > I’d recommend that you read Mary Leftkowitz’s books \*Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History \*(1996) or _Black Athena revisited_. I read a review of that book and it doesn’t say what you think it says. It doesn’t sound like the author is saying that Egyptians were mediteranean, it sounds like she is saying that later pharoahs (after Alexander the Great rolled through Egypt) were Mediteranean and Afrocentrists are wrong to claim that everyone from Plato to Cleopatra were African when they were clearly not. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/208 "2010-06-24T18:30:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Wait, for 50+ years my people wanted the government we had? And then, in '94, we just up and changed our minds? Man, not even the Pit would do for the names I want to call you… I’m going to a funeral for a Holocaust survivor this weekend. Did the Jews who lived in Hitler’s Germany want and deserve the government they had? Did the slaves in the US want and deserve to live under a government that allowed them to be enslaved? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/209 "2010-06-24T18:39:40Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > However, you cannot blame the “government” instead of putting the blame where it belongs: the African people themselves. > > The people can change their government any time they want. > > _ **“No government can sit in power without the consent of its people”** _ Tell that to the North Koreans. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/210 "2010-06-24T18:59:57Z")
[quote=“Mijin, post:162, topic:543711”] In other words the supposed IQ gap is closing. The general consensus is that this shows that IQ tests aren’t really measuring innate ability but something else, something strongly affected by upbringing. [quote] Or it could be evolution occurring before our eyes. Kind of like how evolution over a few thousand years were able to create a standard deviation’s worth of IQ gap between tribal Germans and Picts and tribal Africans Songhai on the one hand and modern day Germans and Brits and modern day West Africans on the other hand. What with cell phones and the internet, evolution is occurring faster these days. > [@](#): > > The problem for africa is that the period of stability required is much longer than, say, an eastern-european country, for various reasons. Why would you need a greater period of stability in Africa versus East Europe? Is it because Eastern Europe already has a lot of infrastructure in place or is it because of cultural issues? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/211 "2010-06-24T20:02:15Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Bottom line: the African people have EXACTLY the government that THEY want. My granson, he comes home from college and says “we get the government we deserve”…Son-in-law just shakes his head and says “that little punk, he never had to serve” Don Henley Once again, North and South Koreans share a single cultural heritage before the Korean war, why is it that those below the demilitarized zone “decided” to have a prosperous democracy and those North of the demilitarized zone “decided” to have a ruthless dictatorship? They are genetically homogenous, they are culturally identical right up until the end of World War II, is there some reason to believe that the Koreans in the north WANTED a dictatorship and the ones in the South WANTED a democracy? Did they even know what those things were when their only experience had been a monarchy (for about 6000 years followed by Japanese imperialism for 35 years? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/212 "2010-06-24T20:08:13Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > In general I am fairly conscientious about following up on purchasing references cited here (most recently, a book on the black-white test score gap recommended by Kimstu–that’s the one I’m citing as evidence the score gap has not narrowed in the US, at least, in twenty years). I blame rap. Perhaps its just coincidence but I correlate the weakening Flynn effect to when black men stopped calling each other brother and started calling each other nigger. Some people correlate the weakening Flynn effect to Ronald Reagan’s vilification of single black mothers on welfare. But regardless of the reason for the weakened Flynn effect, the fact is that if IQ is as immutable as some people think, there shouldn’t be a Flynn effect, not a noticable one at least. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/213 "2010-06-24T20:12:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its like how Brazilians are genetically superior soccer players. Its not just the outliers, the average Brazilian is a superior soccer player. In college we had an intramural intramural tournament covering several sports and the soccer match always went to whoever had the most genetically superior Brazilians. Its was like the rest of us were just standing still. Yes, like the Japanese are best at karate, and the Chinese are best at kung fu. What a load of bollox. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/214 "2010-06-24T21:12:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Or it could be evolution occurring before our eyes. Kind of like how evolution over a few thousand years were able to create a standard deviation’s worth of IQ gap between tribal Germans and Picts and tribal Africans Songhai on the one hand and modern day Germans and Brits and modern day West Africans on the other hand. What with cell phones and the internet, evolution is occurring faster these days. Naw, we can be pretty sure evolution is not the reason for the rapid IQ increase within the 20th and 21st centuries. Evolution is driven by natural selection and a handful of generations is simply not enough, not in the safe environments in which most of us live today. > [@](#): > > Why would you need a greater period of stability in Africa versus East Europe? Is it because Eastern Europe already has a lot of infrastructure in place or is it because of cultural issues? Simpler trading routes. There are lots of countries nearby that can afford higher value goods, and can conveniently invest in your country’s cheap labour and land. One sensible, honest government is all it takes to convert such a country into one with real prospects. At that point the risk of civil war goes down greatly. OTOH in Africa, those huge, nearby markets aren’t there. Also many african countries’ borders are pretty arbitrary, so you have an unusually high proportion of landlocked countries with no significant waterway. Such countries have a very difficult path to economic growth, regardless what the government does. And during the long period while such a country is getting on its feet, it’s running the gauntlet: people have little hope and so corruption or warmongering seem more appealing. But, in essence, I’m saying Africa’s poor because it’s poor. Trying to turn a country round in Africa now is like trying to start a successful business in the roughest, most derelict part of town. The questions really are how did it get that way, and more importantly, what can be done about it? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/215 "2010-06-24T22:13:44Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Since transplanted populations descended from sub-saharan African populations have underperformed other populations socioeconomically within a consistent pattern, and since other populations have outperformed native sub-saharan populations within Africa, a contention that there is a fundamental difference in ability is difficult to rank underneath other, “simpler” explanations. Your consistent pattern points out the problem. Africans who emigrate to other parts of the world come with economic and educational disadvantages, and then find themselves segregated from the general populous and denied a fair return for their contribution. Eurasions who emigrate to Africa reverse the situation for themselves, and bring guns with them to create the same problems for the Africans. That’s the simplest explanation. > [@](#): > > What explanation is simpler than a difference in average ability to change the world around you? Where is your evidence that IQ scores relate to an ability to change the world around you? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/216 "2010-06-24T22:30:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Where is your evidence that IQ scores relate to an ability to change the world around you? How would you define intelligence? It seems fair to say it’s basically the ability to 1) identify a problem, then 2) come up with a remedy, like a chimp using a stick as a tool to get bugs out of a nest. I think humann-level intelligence has a third component, as well: the ability to foresee a future problem and plan ahead to avoid it, e.g., build a shelter, plant crops, etc. I take "change the world around you to be a broad version of that. No? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/217 "2010-06-24T23:27:00Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Did you ever hear of “The Bay of Pigs”? The everyday common people did not even show up to get rid of Castro…because the people did not want to get rid of Castro. There is not a single dictator out there who is holding onto power against the will of its people. Or perhaps some of them were not willing to risk death. > [@](#): > > 1. The days of the Foreign Legion are gone. Where do you think “the army” comes from? The army is composed of the people. The people are their brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, nephews, sons, daugters, and even themselves before they joined up. In a lot of these countries, the army eats and the rest of the country barely gets by. > [@](#): > > 1. That is because they continue to choose new leaders who are the same as the old leaders, the same old economic system, the same old political system, the same old tax system, the same old courts, the same old attitude towards capitalism, the same old not wanting common everyday regular folks to have freedom like the United States Bill of Rights. Its a choice. I don’;t know if the reason for McChrystal’s resignation is lost to you but there are a lot of countries where the MILITARY chooses the leaders. That is why civilian authority over the military is so important to our Republic. Almost every country in the world has a constitution that looks suspiciously like our own. Look at the North Korean Constitution sometime? There is an elected Parliament that has to do whatever Kim Jong Il says or they get shot by the military for treason. > [@](#): > > There is not a single county out there who wants a government and a society like the United States, with our laws, our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, our culture. NOt a one!! Then why are there so many countries that have Copnstitutions that are almost identical to ours? > [@](#): > > YOu can pretend, and make excuses, and deny all you want that people in different countries actually choose a goverment that you dont agree with, but the fact of the matter is that all people in every country of the world have EXACTLY!!! the government they want and deserve, and that \*\*“No government can sit in power without the consent of its people”. \*\* Not true. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/218 "2010-06-24T23:39:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How would you define intelligence? It seems fair to say it’s basically the ability to 1) identify a problem, then 2) come up with a remedy, like a chimp using a stick as a tool to get bugs out of a nest. I think humann-level intelligence has a third component, as well: the ability to foresee a future problem and plan ahead to avoid it, e.g., build a shelter, plant crops, etc. I take "change the world around you to be a broad version of that. No? No. But let’s start with intelligence. An IQ score is not intelligence. Whatever it is that IQ tests measure, have some relationship to intelligence, but there is no basis for equation. Now, for intelligence itself, your definition is highly simplistic, and doesn’t at all relate to comparative measures of intelligence. Finally, ‘changing the world around you’ has far more to do with physical abilities and social structures than intelligence. Those people who use intelligence to ‘change the world’ in some far greater way than the average are outliers in every population. If you are trying point out that IQ scores relate in some way to intelligence, that seems likely based on the mass of empirical evidence, but there is nothing to show that it is an accurate or precise measurement of intelligence, or that there is a relationship between IQ scores or intelligence, and the abililty to ‘change the world’ (with the exception of IQ scores being used in a discrminatory manner). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/219 "2010-06-24T23:44:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How would you define intelligence? It seems fair to say it’s basically the ability to 1) identify a problem, then 2) come up with a remedy, like a chimp using a stick as a tool to get bugs out of a nest. I think humann-level intelligence has a third component, as well: the ability to foresee a future problem and plan ahead to avoid it, e.g., build a shelter, plant crops, etc. I take "change the world around you to be a broad version of that. No? None of those things requires a high IQ however. I’m a bit of a skeptic when it comes to IQ generally. I’m not convinced that there is anything that someone with an IQ of 120 can “get” that someone with an IQ of 80 couldn’t, though the latter will usually take more time. But anyway, no-one would argue that farming or building requires high (individual) intelligence. Also, if we’re supposing that intelligence must vary among populations “like basketball”, what about other important characteristics that might affect how a society develops? Are black people on the wrong side of all of them? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/220 "2010-06-25T00:29:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Same childhood nutrition, same cultural norms, same parental encouragement, same role models, same libraries, same extra-curriculars, same social expectations of success: _that’s_ equal opportunity. Aside from nutrition and libraries, any social differences that cause a performance gap might as well be genetic if it is so difficult to change but it seems a bit silly to focus so much on IQ. The question of Africa I think is sufficiently answered by instability, famine, corruption, war, disease, AIDS, and half a dozen things I can’t think of right now that I think its a bit silly to focus so much on IQ. Its not like low IQ makes you any more likely to wage war or engage in kleptocracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711.md?page=12)