# Reasons Africa is "lagging behind"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711 "2010-06-18T21:17:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/81 "2010-06-20T22:15:08Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > 1. YOu need to read some history. American history, even including the wars between indian tribes, has been that of conquer and looting for hundreds of years, by many different countries, by many different indian tribes, before we finally united the states and formed the United States and chose to become wealthy. But no one group had the power to take everything, to exterminate all their rivals. Nor did they have the crops and animals Europeans did. > [@Susanann](#): > > 1. The true fact is just the OPPOSITE. There is no “one group” in the United States. In fact, the United States, undistputedly, is the most heterogeneous, the most multi-racial, the most multi-culture, the most ethnically diverse nation in the history of the earth. Even if that’s true, that’s NOW. The America that conquered the continent was rabidly monocultural, incapable of tolerating differences. > [@Susanann](#): > > Give “me” Africa and I will easily and quickly become the wealthiest person on Earth. And now with the standard right wing megalomania. YOU can turn Africa into a wealthy empire, all by yourself because you are a superior being; unlike the lazy filthy subhumans who actually live there. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/82 "2010-06-20T22:17:29Z")
> [@Nicolas\_Bourbaki](#): > > We got incredibly fertile land . YOu dont know the history of the United States at all. Most people first saw Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, etc. as a vast wasteland. The other lands with forests on it when we found it also could not be cultivated. The rest of our lands were deserts and mountains. Alaska was considered to be a worthless bunch of snow and ice. Like Africa, America also was not fertile when we first formed the United States. We “made” it fertile. A “free” United States of Africa (with our U.S. Constitution and our Bill of Rights), in addition to being a manufacturing and technological leader of the world, could also become a rich agricultural nation. All they gotta do is choose to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/83 "2010-06-20T22:24:24Z")
> [@Nicolas\_Bourbaki](#): > > Russia – … is populated by big strong virile white folk: . I wish people would stop making racist comments or trying to bring racism into this topic. Race has nothing to do with it. Africa “could” become free, and wealthy, regardless of whatever races or ethnic groups happen to live there. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/84 "2010-06-20T22:26:36Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Most people first saw Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, etc. as a vast wasteland. Because they didn’t regard the people who already lived there as human. > [@Susanann](#): > > The other lands with forests on it when we found it also could not be cultivated. And the Indians didn’t cultivate them…because they didn’t have crop plants to grow there, or domesticated animals to pull plows and such. They didn’t have genetic engineering labs; they couldn’t make plants and animals that didn’t exist. Europe on the other hand lucked out with having multiple easy to domesticate species. > [@Susanann](#): > > Like Africa, America also was not fertile when we first formed the United States. No, America was more fertile then than now, before we damaged so much of the soil and damaged the ecology in general so bad. > [@Susanann](#): > > A “free” United States of Africa (with our U.S. Constitution and our Bill of Rights), in addition to being a manufacturing and technological leader of the world, could also become a rich agricultural nation. Garbage. It would pretty much instantly fall into civil war or brutal tyranny or both; they just don’t have enough in common to be a nation. The history of colonialism has demonstrated that these slapped together artificial nations just aren’t stable; in fact you are pushing for a repeat of one of the errors that made Africa the mess it is. > [@Susanann](#): > > I wish people would stop making racist comments or trying to bring racism into this topic. > > Race has nothing to do with it. Sneering at entire ethic groups as “lazy” and “stupid” is classic racism. Your beliefs are racist, regardless of whether you like the label. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/85 "2010-06-20T22:29:02Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Give “me” Africa and I will easily and quickly become the wealthiest person on Earth. I would think that anyone given a whole continent would be a bit on the wealthy side. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/86 "2010-06-20T22:30:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > YOU can turn Africa into a wealthy empire, all by yourself because you are a superior being; unlike the lazy filthy subhumans who actually live there. :rolleyes: Seems like a truism to me. Give me a whole bunch of stuff and I will have… a whole bunch of stuff! Go me! ---
**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/87 "2010-06-20T22:30:44Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > … “could” … (You’re doing it [“right”](http://www.dailywritingtips.com/punctuation-errors-quotation-marks-for-emphasis/).) ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/88 "2010-06-20T22:33:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, America was more fertile then than now, before we damaged so much of the soil and damaged the ecology in general so bad. > . You should come to the United States sometime and see what we did with Florida. It used to be just a big 'ole bug infested swamp. The people of Africa could do the same thing with Africa if they chose to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/89 "2010-06-20T22:37:14Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > You should come to the United States sometime and see what we did with Florida. > > It used to be just a big 'ole bug infested swamp. > > The people of Africa could do the same thing with Africa if they chose to do so. Yeah, through sheeeer willpower. :rolleyes: And what makes you think I’m not American? It says “California” right there. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/90 "2010-06-20T22:56:29Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > You should come to the United States sometime and see what we did with Florida. > > It used to be just a big 'ole bug infested swamp. > > The people of Africa could do the same thing with Africa if they chose to do so. Hi Susanann, Welcome to the Straight Dope. I look forward to many of your posts. A bit of advice…you’re debating against nonsense, above. Don’t waste your time. There are some good debaters on the left side of the spectrum on the SDMB like - MichaelQRielly - MeasureForMeasure - Hellestal - Damuri Ajashi - Dick Dastardly and a few others. They are actually smart and think about what they write before they tap the keyboard. See if you can engage them in a debate. They’re good. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/91 "2010-06-20T23:17:14Z")
**Susanann** has only made one really good point–corrupt government. Kleptocracy is a major stumbling block for any & all sub-Sarahan nations. The lack of stable classical nations could be linked to limited literacy in the Golden Age of Africa. Sadly, paper, parchment, cloth & bark do not hold up welll, against high humidity & termites, both of which abound in Africa. Note that Timbuktu was located in a drier area, & this may have had some influence. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/92 "2010-06-20T23:23:26Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Hi Susanann, > Welcome to the Straight Dope. I look forward to many of your posts. > A bit of advice…you’re debating against nonsense, above. Don’t waste your time. . I copy that! Check, and double check! Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/93 "2010-06-20T23:23:29Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Hi Susanann, > > Welcome to the Straight Dope. I look forward to many of your posts. > > A bit of advice…you’re debating against nonsense, above. Don’t waste your time. > > There are some good debaters on the left side of the spectrum on the SDMB like > > - MichaelQRielly > - MeasureForMeasure > - Hellestal > - Damuri Ajashi > - Dick Dastardly > > and a few others. They are actually smart and think about what they write before they tap the keyboard. See if you can engage them in a debate. They’re good. Don’t just assert that it’s nonsense. Prove it with your vast knowledge of development issues in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/94 "2010-06-20T23:30:27Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Don’t just assert that it’s nonsense. Prove it with your vast knowledge of development issues in Africa. I lived in Africa for 3 years, although I would never claim to be an expert on development issues. My comments would spring forth mostly from my interactions with the local populace, mostly in the Orange Free State around the Bloemfontein region and T’ban Nchu (a former homeland). Hope I spelled that correctly…I’m doing it from memory. My comment was more directed to the posters Susanann was debating against. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/95 "2010-06-21T00:07:39Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Okay, well the success of what you term “Europe” was really influenced by Middle Eastern populations such as the Israelites, and the scholasticism in Oxford and the British empire (for example) was heavily contributed to by Christian learning and trans-Turkic trade with the Middle Eastern populations. > > To begin with, you are wrong. Islam spread to West Africa at approximately the same time as it spread to North Africa, the 700’s. Islam is no more “authentic” to North Africa than it is to West Africa. Both pretty much got hit by branches of the same wave. What you are asserting is like saying that Japan is basically a rip off of Tibet because they both practice Buddhism. > > In practical terms, North Africa’s influence on West Africa has been severely limited by that big huge desert that basically only the Tuaregs could cross- and the Tuaregs are not a particularly shining example of orthodox Arab-style Islam. They tend towards a synergistic semi-animist strain full of it’s own unique complexities. They were not telling anyone to build libraries. > > While it is a diverse and cosmopolitan place with all kinds of influences, through the centuries, West Africa has developed it’s own Islamic culture and practice that is distinct from Arab culture. Nobody is ever going to go to Djenne and think they are in Casablanca. Islam has blended with local cultures to create something that is uniquely West African. The music, the clothing, the customs, the way of governing, the celebrations…they are all different. West Africa is it’s own thing, not some kind of fake-o Arab culture. While Islam was no doubt a positive influence on their ability to develop advanced empires, that doesn’t make anything any less African. It’s not like there was some kind of Arab overlord orchestrating the whole thing. > > Anyway, West Africa- pretty much all of West Africa that was not impassible desert or malarial jungle- had a pretty darn fine imperial age. They had rich, learned empires that lasted for thousands of freaking years and still exist today. You can’t tell me that just being kind of near Arabs is enough to make an empire last for centuries. Why is it so hard to admit that they had some golden times? > > Here is the Wikipedia page about Africa’s empires. Try reading it and learning something. [List of kingdoms and empires in African history - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_empires) Why thank you, **even sven** ; I have read that. “Rich, learned empires that lasted for thousands of years”? Hmmm…to me that seems like a bit of an optimistic assessment and I still contend the farther south in Africa you go, the more optimistic it is, particularly if you want to give proof cases of the core issue here: high cognitive skills underpinning that civilization. But OK; I have no real interest in putting down African history. If you and Tom want to argue the sub-saharan civilizations achieved on a par with what was achieved elsewhere, as I said before–have at it. Now that we have a lot more mobility of populations, it seems like it’s a better comparison to have them competing against one another head to head, so to speak, and that data (rather than just the vicissitudes of history) is what I find more compelling in the basic debate at hand–genetic luck versus environmental luck. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/96 "2010-06-21T03:48:18Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > But OK; I have no real interest in putting down African history. If you and Tom want to argue the sub-saharan civilizations achieved on a par with what was achieved elsewhere, as I said before–have at it. OK. I have had it with the straw man arguments and the mischaracterizations of what I have posted. If you cannot actually address what has been posted, then I am going to begin believing those posters who keep asserting that you really are just looking for ways to post racist nonsense–a point that I have not accepted until now. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/97 "2010-06-21T03:50:27Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > The people of Africa could do the same thing with Africa if they chose to do so. Yep. Norman Vincent Peale meets Leni Riefenstahl for a cup of wishful thinking with a heaping spoonful of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/98 "2010-06-21T04:25:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > OK. I have had it with the straw man arguments and the mischaracterizations of what I have posted. If you cannot actually address what has been posted, then I am going to begin believing those posters who keep asserting that you really are just looking for ways to post racist nonsense–a point that I have not accepted until now. by **even sven** : “_It is true that in the past Africa was not that different than the rest of the world…They had rich, learned empires that lasted for thousands of freaking years and still exist today._-” by **tomndebb** : “_Your claims_ about sub-Saharan empires are meaningless from any perspective.”\* \*I assume, my claims that sub-saharan empires were not as cognitively sophisticated as others in the rest of the world to a given date… As I understand it, your claim is that modern civilizations are so recent over the entire scope of human history that a pretense of significance in comparing any of them is premature. It may be a fair point, but I don’t understand your consternation over my viewpoint. I may have misinterpreted your use of the term “meaningless” to mean you were taking the opposite viewpoint from me on the relative sophistication of African civilizations. If you do agree that sub-saharan civilizations have been relatively primitive compared to civilizations elsewhere, perhaps you could say that less obliquely, and I apologize about misconstruing your point. I am not sure **even sven** would agree with you but perhaps I have not understood her point either. I reiterate my prior point that playing World’s Best Civilization distracts from more fundamental data points over population differences, and the mobility of current populations allows for more direct and precise comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/99 "2010-06-21T05:22:35Z")
Some say that Africa needs is a strongman that is really strong enough to do something good with his country, even if he has to kill a million people to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711/100 "2010-06-21T05:25:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Some say that Africa needs is a strongman that is really strong enough to do something good with his country, even if he has to kill a million people to do it. In the real world, the end result of that is a million corpses and a nation as bad or worse as it ever was. One thing Africa isn’t short of is strongmen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reasons-africa-is-lagging-behind/543711.md?page=6)