# Reassessing John Byrne **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 26, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219 "2006-06-26T16:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/41 "2006-06-30T17:59:34Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] Yeah, count me as someone who doesn’t give a fig for his personal behavior, I loved his X-Men run, heck I remember buying After Doomsday with the great back up feature Rog2000 at my local quickie-mart (damn I wish I’d kept those!). [/QUOTE] You mean **Doomsday +1** 😉 And Rog2000 backed up **E-Man**. What? You _don’t_ remember the minutae of books published 25+ years ago? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/42 "2006-06-30T19:45:31Z")
[QUOTE=Fenris] You mean **Doomsday +1** 😉 And Rog2000 backed up **E-Man**. What? You _don’t_ remember the minutae of books published 25+ years ago? 😉 [/QUOTE] I realized my mistake soon after, but was too lazy to correct myself, leaving it to see who would win the no-prize. 😃 You’ll have to forgive me, I recently sold my collection and I’m dealing with the sense of loss. Still hung on to my copy of Flash #105! ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/43 "2006-06-30T20:26:56Z")
[QUOTE=Fenris] Here’s the problem I have with much of Byrne’s stuff. Based on the books he wrorked on after his FF and Supermen runs, it seems to me like Byrne A) Doesn’t play well with others\* and B) Refuses to allow characters to grow or change past what they were when he was 15 years old. [/QUOTE] I agree with you on “A”; I just looked through the galleries on his website and was reminded how so much of his work is defined by its overwhelming contempt for–well, somebody. There’s something of the wimpy kid who wishes he could be a bully to the man’s character. As for “B”: Well, there are some counterexamples. The Johnny Storm/Alicia Masters romance was touched on earlier, and God was that more interesting than the route subsequent writers took. Byrne and, later, Claremoint, are the only FF writers who gave Johnny credit for any degree of depth (It’s official; I am the **only** person who read and enjoyed Chris Claremont’s run on FF). And he shook Superman out of decades of stagnation. He’s not pure suckitude. He’s adulterated suckitude. And he can draw well; he just inexplicably chooses not to. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/44 "2006-06-30T20:37:45Z")
[QUOTE=Krokodil] (It’s official; I am the **only** person who read and enjoyed Chris Claremont’s run on FF). [/QUOTE] _raises hand_ I enjoyed Claremont’s FF run, too, when old skool fans were having fits. Really, I didn’t (and still don’t) see how Claremont was any worse than, say, DeFalco. He certainly had his faults but he seemed to be having fun writing the series, poked fun at himself, and benefited from Larocca’s beautiful artwork. His worst quality was a tendancy to be all “U Go, Gurl!” with the female characters. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/45 "2006-06-30T20:44:31Z")
[QUOTE=ululate] IIRC, she took out the Hulk by putting a forcefield around his head (feats of superstrength use up a lot of air in a hurry), and threatened Doctor Doom into standing down by quipping that she could put a forcefield bubble inside his armor and expanding it. She’s basically a Green Lantern, only with _ **invisible** _ soldified energy constructs. [/QUOTE] I was one of those who wished she had remained MALICE 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/46 "2006-06-30T20:55:34Z")
[QUOTE=Krokodil] I agree with you on “A”; I just looked through the galleries on his website and was reminded how so much of his work is defined by its overwhelming contempt for–well, somebody. There’s something of the wimpy kid who wishes he could be a bully to the man’s character. As for “B”: Well, there are some counterexamples. The Johnny Storm/Alicia Masters romance was touched on earlier, and God was that more interesting than the route subsequent writers took. Byrne and, later, Claremoint, are the only FF writers who gave Johnny credit for any degree of depth (It’s official; I am the **only** person who read and enjoyed Chris Claremont’s run on FF). And he shook Superman out of decades of stagnation. He’s not pure suckitude. He’s adulterated suckitude. And he can draw well; he just inexplicably chooses not to. [/QUOTE] But excluding She-Hulk, I can’t think of a single example that’s _after_ his Superman reboot. Note also that when Byrne was briefly on the Unadjectived X-Men, his _first_ priority was to retcon Magneto back into a psycho who’d been mellowed by Moira and or Xavier messing with his brain or genetics or whatever (which is a change I approve of, btw. But it does demonstrate the “If it’s not like it was when I was 15, I don’t like it” mentality) Also, several quibbles; I enjoyed the Claremont FF run _except_ for the “I’m a grown-up future kid of yours (with a possibly misspelled name) come back to the past” bit and I think that was handed to Claremont by someone else. Also, Waid gave Johnny some depth too–more than Byrne did and I liked Byrne’s Johnny. Finally, I’d quibble about the “decades of stagnation” bit. Elliot S! Maggin was telling damned great Superman stories into the late '70s. Heh–if you’d said “Half a decade of stagnation” I wouldn’t have been able to say a word. My only other point (and I don’t blame Byrne for this–he was expliciltly ordered to reboot Superman) was Byrne’s stance that Superman HAD to be rebooted to destagnate him. Lookit Alan Moore’s “Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow” or Moore’s (brilliant) Supreme rune or hell, Grant Morrison’s wonderful All-Star Superman run to see why a reboot wasn’t “necessary”. (Again, I know that’s what the editors wanted him to do, I’m just arguing the word “necessary”.) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/47 "2006-06-30T21:03:35Z")
[QUOTE=Krokodil] His behavior at Marv Wolfman’s trial (making faces and sticking his tongue out at Wolfman from the gallery while Wolfman testified) made many people question his mental and emotional stability. [/QUOTE] This is something I was unaware of. Could you elaborate, please? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/48 "2006-06-30T21:24:23Z")
[QUOTE=The New and Improved Superman] This is something I was unaware of. Could you elaborate, please? [/QUOTE] seconded, what trial? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/49 "2006-06-30T21:39:46Z")
The trial would have to be the fight over the character of Blade between Wolfman and Marvel. I’m not familiar with the incident in question though. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/50 "2006-06-30T21:40:32Z")
[QUOTE=The New and Improved Superman] This is something I was unaware of. Could you elaborate, please? [/QUOTE] Marv Wolfman created a fairly obscure supporting character in **Tomb of Dracula** , Blade, who eventually became the first Marvel character to carry a money-making feature film. Wolfman had reason to believe that he, not Marvel, owned that character and a couple dozen others. In 1997, he initiated a lawsuit to this end; in 2002, it was decided in Marvel’s favor. While Wolfman’s claims had what appears to non-lawyers to be surprising merit, Wolfman had one or two industry pros testifying in his favor, but Marvel had several, including John Byrne. Wolfman talked with The Comics Journal about the trial [here.](http://www.tcj.com/239/n_wolfman.html) Here’s an excerpt, dealing specifically with Byrne: > [@](#): > > DEAN: Did you just have a bad three days in court? Was this a case that could have gone differently given a different judge? > > WOLFMAN: I would like to think it could have. But if you insist upon going over something in your head endlessly, all you’ll do is get the wall bloody by hitting your head against it too much. We did what we could do in the court we were assigned. We did the best that we can do. We lost and we have to go on from there. I’m not interested in reliving those particular days because they were the absolute worst days that I’ve ever had. > > DEAN: Really? > > WOLFMAN: Not made any easier by Mr. Byrne. > > DEAN: He really was making faces in the back there? > > WOLFMAN: He was making faces whenever I’d look in his direction. Because the comments I had to make referred to him, he would start to make faces. He would move up and down. There was a wall in front of him, a couple feet high where the witnesses are behind. He would like lower himself so I couldn’t see him then raise himself up. He would start shaking his head no as if I was making a mistake, and he flustered me, because I’m trying to remember specific events. He was acting very much like a two-and-a-half-year-old child who has not had any Ritalin. > > DEAN: Do you think he was trying to break your concentration to make you testify poorly? > > WOLFMAN: Either he was trying to do that, or he has a problem where he can’t sit still, like everyone else could. > > DEAN: Were there hard feelings between the two of you prior to this? > > WOLFMAN: We’ve never really gotten along well ever since Superman, but I was unaware that it was anything more than difference of opinion on work. I never had any problems with John personally, but obviously he had one with me. It could be because Luthor, which was my creation, turned out to be more important and lasting than most of the things that he had added to the mythos. I would hope to think that that’s not the reason. I’d almost prefer thinking that I had done something without knowing it, because that would be really childish if it were just based on things of that sort. I have no idea why. You’d have to ask him. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/51 "2006-06-30T21:42:09Z")
You beat me to that exact same link by seconds, **Krododil!** ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/52 "2006-06-30T21:48:08Z")
[Ah-ha. More info.](http://www.tcj.com/239/n_wolfman.html). ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/53 "2006-06-30T21:53:46Z")
:: shakes fist angrily at **Krokodil** :: I _WILL_ have my revenge! I vow _ETERNAL_ vengance! Or, y’know. Maybe not. But since when has the Luthor-As-Kingpin-On-Slimfast been anything but Byrne’s? The character first appeared in the 6 part Man of Steel mini-series and that was ALL Byrne’s, IIRC. The first real interesting change in Luthor came from Grant Morrison in his JLA run when Luthor got a motive beyond “Bah! That Webcrawler big blue boyscout has foiled one of my business deals FOR THE LAST TIME!” ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/54 "2006-06-30T22:04:16Z")
[QUOTE=Fenris] But since when has the Luthor-As-Kingpin-On-Slimfast been anything but Byrne’s? The character first appeared in the 6 part Man of Steel mini-series and that was ALL Byrne’s, IIRC. [/QUOTE] According to Byrne, and, I believe the PTB of DC at the time. Wolfman’s story’s different. As he tells it, he consulted with Byrne on MoS (and, IIRC, was originally supposed to share the writing credit), and the rebooted Luthor (about whom I have to disagree with you about, but that’s beside the point) was one of Wolfman’s suggestions (and the only one that survived into the final version). I can’t remember where I read that, though. \<\_\< Perhaps Wolfman’s afterward from the Crisis on Infinite Earths hardcover. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/55 "2006-06-30T22:19:24Z")
[QUOTE=Fenris] But since when has the Luthor-As-Kingpin-On-Slimfast been anything but Byrne’s? The character first appeared in the 6 part Man of Steel mini-series and that was ALL Byrne’s, IIRC. The first real interesting change in Luthor came from Grant Morrison in his JLA run when Luthor got a motive beyond “Bah! That Webcrawler big blue boyscout has foiled one of my business deals FOR THE LAST TIME!” [/QUOTE] Around 1985, DC solicited proposals for its major books and characters from the major creators of the day. Steve Englehart and Denny O’Neil submitted proposals for a direction for the Batman titles, and DC went with O’Neil’s proposal, resulting in two decades of grim ‘n’ grittiness and textbook psychosis. Steve Gerber and Doug Moench submitted proposals for a Spectre series. Gerber was distracted by the HTD movie, and Moench’s proposal was selected. George Perez did the Wonder Woman reboot, and Steve Englehart did one for Green Lantern. John Byrne and Marv Wolfman submitted dual proposals for a direction for the Superman books. Instead of choosing one at the total expense of the other, the editors decided to mix and match. Byrne got **Superman: Man of steel, Superman** and **Action** and Wolfman and Jerry Ordway got the new, renumbered **Adventures of Superman.** Each title incorporated elements of both proposals. Byrne brought the comic in line with the films (sterile, colorless Krypton; living Ma and Pa Kent), and Wolfman _Dallas_-ized the three primary characters, making Luthor a business tycoon. In his proposal, Lois Lane was introduced as Luthor’s mistress, to be lured away by Superman. This part was not retained. Both writers were given wide lattitude, but not a completely free hand. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219/56 "2006-06-30T23:03:08Z")
I also recall that it was Marv Wolfman’s pre-Crisis reinterpetation of Vandal Savage as a corrupt multibillionaire industrialist that directly inspired John Byrne’s revamp along the same lines. I’m pretty sure businessman Savage appeared in some Superman comics in the early-to-mid 80s, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reassessing-john-byrne/362219.md?page=2)