# Reciting Pledge of Allegiance in public schools ruled unconstitutional. Discuss. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644 "2005-09-14T18:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/161 "2005-09-16T15:51:34Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Personally, I have no desire or interest in having it removed - it just isn’t all that offnsive to me. Whether it stays or goess is not the real issue. What I find more of a problem is that both sides demand that it be all their way, that either side can simply sweep away anyone who disagrees. It’s the godhaters vs the freedomhaters and both are eeeeevul. Both sides miss the whole point. You’re free to do what you want, but you’re not free to force your way on someone else. That’s what attracted my attention to this thread. That would describe my position exactly. I’m an atheist, and I don’t feel marginalized or unAmerican because the Pledge says “under God”. The first amendment is vague, and I can see valid arguments on both sides. This is where the Courts play a key role, and they’ve ruled over the years that “ceremonial desim” is acceptable. Fine. Now let’s move on to weighter issues. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/162 "2005-09-16T16:02:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not surprised most atheists come from religious homes. How else would they become bitter about religion. The majority of homes are religious; where else _would_ we come from ? The pits of Hell ? Spontaneously generated under toadstools ? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/163 "2005-09-16T16:17:39Z")
If atheists sprang from either place, they wouldn’t be able to be atheists, now would they? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/164 "2005-09-16T16:54:00Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > If atheists sprang from either place, they wouldn’t be able to be atheists, now would they? Spontaneous generation doesn’t require a god. As far as Hell goes, I don’t think “God is real and I hate him and want him dead !” is what the theists want to here. Antitheism, instead of atheism. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/165 "2005-09-16T18:24:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The inscription “In God we Trust” on U.S. Coins. 90% 8% 2% > Non-denominational prayer at public school ceremonies. 78 21 1 > Monument of the Ten Commandments in a public area. 70 29 1 > Monument of the Qur’an in a public area 33 64 3 > Federal funds for social programs run by Christian organizations 64 34 2 > Federal funds for social programs run by Islamic organizations 41 56 3 I take issue with this, especially since it comes from some “religious tolerance” site. If anything, it shows religous INtolerance. It says “the people” are a bunch of bigots, who want Uncle Sam to make their prejudices the law of the land. “I want my religion to be plastered everywhere and respected. To hell with someone else’s religion. I want the government to respect my religion and ignore or disrespect all others”. It’s bigotry and intolerance, and it’s incredibly obvious to some of us. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/166 "2005-09-16T18:45:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not surprised most atheists come from religious homes. How else would they become bitter about religion. I’m not bitter about religion. I’m happy not to have one, and whether other people have one or don’t generally isn’t my concern unless they manage to make it my concern. > [@](#): > > Strong religious teachings that told me I was going to hell, and I never felt safe enough, so I became a soft atheist for over 30 years of my life. Mad at the way religion made me feel, bitter for being forced out by reason and logic. It sounds to me like you were never an atheist, just embittered. Which would explain your lack of understanding of what atheists actually think. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/167 "2005-09-16T19:55:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not bitter about religion. I’m happy not to have one, and whether other people have one or don’t generally isn’t my concern unless they manage to make it my concern. > > It sounds to me like you were never an atheist, just embittered. Which would explain your lack of understanding of what atheists actually think. Well, since you aren’t me, you will never know how or what I felt. So why make such an assumption in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/168 "2005-09-16T19:55:32Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not surprised most atheists come from religious homes. How else would they become bitter about religion. I still have fond memories of going to church with my parents when I was a kid. When home, I attend with them, and we both respect each others’ beliefs. I’m bitter about the religiosity of smarmy patronizing comments like yours and the constant efforts to legislate religion against me, but I have no ill will toward religion in itself. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/169 "2005-09-16T20:01:28Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I take issue with this, especially since it comes from some “religious tolerance” site. If anything, it shows religous INtolerance. It says “the people” are a bunch of bigots, who want Uncle Sam to make their prejudices the law of the land. > > “I want my religion to be plastered everywhere and respected. To hell with someone else’s religion. I want the government to respect my religion and ignore or disrespect all others”. It’s bigotry and intolerance, and it’s incredibly obvious to some of us. The polls were done by Gallup, and your remarks are your opinions only, and do not reflect the feelings or opinions of others. Your attack upon the site does show you to be everything you called the people who own the site. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/170 "2005-09-16T20:04:02Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > I still have fond memories of going to church with my parents when I was a kid. When home, I attend with them, and we both respect each others’ beliefs. > > I’m bitter about the religiosity of smarmy patronizing comments like yours and the constant efforts to legislate religion against me, but I have no ill will toward religion in itself. I guess you haven’t noticed that it was the atheists that filed the law suit against the religionist. Who is trying to force their way on the public, the atheists, of course. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/171 "2005-09-16T20:06:57Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Spontaneous generation doesn’t require a god. As far as Hell goes, I don’t think “God is real and I hate him and want him dead !” is what the theists want to here. Antitheism, instead of atheism. God is not going to hurt you. Do what you will, He will not harm you. Start learning instead of yelling. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/172 "2005-09-16T20:11:33Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > The strength of religion goes up and down, and varies from region to region. Right now, it’s in an upswing, especially at the top. > > The more liberal churches may reject the doctrine of Hell; I suspect that’s one reason why they are constantly weakening, while the fundamentalists grow stronger. The fundamentalists follow the true essence of their religion; ignorance and hatred. They will always be stronger; the liberal Christian folk will never be anything but a side note. > > Most people are neither; they are largely what I’ve heard called “cultural Christians”. They say the words, go through the motions but ultimately, religion isn’t much of a guide to their behavior. That’s why they are civilized; when people do let religion guide their behavior, they do things like disown gay children. For that matter, look at the Middle East or medieval Europe. > > “God does not harm His children” ? 😕 Have you actually read the Bible at all ? God has committed atrocity after atrocity; mass murder, torture, terrorism, you name it. He’s Saddam Hussein in the sky. The Bible was written by men, not God. God has never harmed anyone for anything. Men have done the terrible deeds and blamed it on God. You need to talk to someone informed to help you with this hate. You are the only one being hurt by your own hate. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/173 "2005-09-16T20:13:44Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I guess you haven’t noticed that it was the atheists that filed the law suit against the religionist. Who is trying to force their way on the public, the atheists, of course. The atheists want to be left alone. It’s the godders who want everyone to praise their vile deity. > [@lekatt](#): > > God is not going to hurt you. Do what you will, He will not harm you. Start learning instead of yelling. I’m not afraid of any god, since I’m an atheist. I am afraid of those who follow gods since they actually exist, and are hateful by nature. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/174 "2005-09-16T20:18:12Z")
Sorry to post twice in a row, but I wanted to offer my own experience as a counter example to those who say that most kids don’t bother to say the pledge. I had no idea that saying the pledge of allegiance was optional until high school, when my History teacher spoke to us about it on the first day of class Sophomore year. He asked that, if we chose not to particpate, we still stand silently as a show of respect to him. Before then, it had always just been done. Nobody ever mentioned the fact that it was voluntary. When I decided that I didn’t care to say the pledge, I routinely got nasty looks. Rarely from the students, but from the teachers. One teacher (a substitute), called me “disrespectful and unpatriotic” for sitting quietly while others gave the pledge. I was usually the only one who sat out. More than once, a teacher asked me, immediately afterward, why I hadn’t recited the pledge. Way to put a 15 year old kid on the spot and force him to explain his nascent atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/175 "2005-09-16T20:18:38Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Well, since you aren’t me, you will never know how or what I felt. So why make such an assumption in the first place. :eek: Because you’re making assumptions about how other people feel! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/176 "2005-09-16T20:23:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your entire post was a lie, you have completely misstated my position, and your core quote about my offense was snipped to remove the context which demonstrated that I was refering to a very specific subset of “religious” people and that I was responding to a particualr claim of warfare by **lekatt**. > > Let’s look at the actual exchange: > You then cropped my quote toSo **lekatt** makes an arguable claim that we can impose religion through governmental activities on people who do not want religion and government mixed because the government was founded by “religionists.” Clearly I disagree with that position, but that is only the setup for his next claim and I did not respond directly to it. > He then goes on to declare that there is a “war” between “the seculars and the religionists.” He also takes his own argument further from the realm of reality by declaring that atheists have a religion, with the (false) implication that it is atheists who make up the “seculars.” He then claims that his “war” is one of atheists trying to impose their “religion” on the country is the source of the “seculars.” > He then wonders which side will “win” the “war” to which he has already alluded. > > To this odd mix of error and wishful thinking, I replied with a specific statement that the “religionists” who are trying to impose their beliefs on the country (using his own word in quotes to indicate that I refer specifically the people he claims in his text, not the community of all believers) are the people who have most frequently resorted to violence and persecution. > By lopping off the beginning of my sentence, you drag away the context and make it appear that I am accusing all religious believers of persecution. You have then continued to falsely accuse me of that modified statement. False quotation? Quote out of context? Whatever you wish to claim about your quotation of my post, it is clearly not “full” and it is misleading, not accurate. > > I have never claimed that all believers are prone to violence and you can only support your own false accusation by cropping my statement. This renders your attempts to set up parallel constructions of Newdow and communists or my views and that of al Qaida foolish–and clearly dishonest. > > As to the guilt by association, I have already acknowledged that I am associating **lekatt** with those who will permit violence to be done in their name, but those people are not all believers or all Christians or all Right-Wing Christians, but that subset of Christians in his country who have traditionally argued that the beliefs of particular Christian groups should be imposed by the government on all groups, even non-Christian and Christian groups who do not share the same beliefs. He introduced the notion of warfare and winning; I simply pointed out where that notion has taken us, historically, and who the perpetrators of that violence have been. Since he clearly supports that conflict, it would seem that he either supports the violence or is willing to tolerate it. > > This is not a claim that anyone who wishes to keep “under God” in the PoA wishes to do so violently. This is an observation that **lekatt** has aligned himself with those who have used violence in the past. Heck, he is even willing to lie in his thesis to support his point, claiming that secularism is an “atheist” movement when it has historically been a movement by _religious_ groups in this country to uphold the rights of holders of minority _religious_ beliefs. Newdow may be an atheist, but the Baptists who protested discriminatory taxation, the Catholics who wished to use their own bible translation, the Jews who simply wanted to be allowed to live in peace were all religious believers. Tom, I don’t align myself with any one but me, I can’t align myself with those who in the past used violence because they are all dead now. This is 2005. But if it makes you feel good to continually attack me, then so be it. I am not moved by rants. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/177 "2005-09-16T20:25:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > :eek: Because you’re making assumptions about how other people feel! Am not…are too…am not…are too…ad infinitum. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/178 "2005-09-16T20:26:22Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The Bible was written by men, not God. God has never harmed anyone for anything. Men have done the terrible deeds and blamed it on God. The only evidence we have for any god is the Bible and simililar books; unless proven otherwise I’ll take it as an accurate portrayel of his personality. People as a rule don’t blame him for it, the excuse him or even praise him for it. > [@lekatt](#): > > You need to talk to someone informed to help you with this hate. You are the only one being hurt by your own hate. By “informed” I suspect you mean “true believer”. My hate isn’t hurting me, it’s protecting me. The history of religion is a history of nearly unalloyed evil. It should be opposed at all times, as it is inherently destructive, tyrannical, irrational and sadistic. Yes, I’ve heard all of the peace-and-love speeches; I don’t care about them. What I care about is the multimillenial history of evil and craziness due to religion. Results are what matter, and religion has produced very bad results. Relevant to the OP, mixing state and church has a long and nasty history; nothing good is likely to come from it. The state at least is a necessary evil; religion is evil without the necessity. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/179 "2005-09-16T20:32:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The polls were done by Gallup, and your remarks are your opinions only, and do not reflect the feelings or opinions of others. Your attack upon the site does show you to be everything you called the people who own the site. I strongly disagree. The cited poll shows support for government endorsement of all things “Christian”. Displays of the 10 Commandments, in God we trust, under God, funding for Christian charities, etc. By simply substituting Muslim in place of Christian, such as Muslim charities, the Koran instead of the Commandments, there is dare I say, no support. It’s right there in the numbers. Here’s the thing. Muslims pray to the same God as Christians do. They follow the same basic core precepts and laws as Christians do - don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t lie, Different verbage maybe, but all saying the same things. Jehovah, Allah, Yahweh, all are simply different names for the same Creator. So why then must Government be pushed into supporting only one brand of religion? The Constitution would forbid it anyway. That is a good thing. How would you feel, if the situation were reversed? What if Muslims were a huge majority, and the Los Angeles Mullah declared you to be unAmerican, and wanted “There Is No God But Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet” plastered on coins, court houses, etc? You’d scream like a scalded cat. Just because a poll shows a certain result does not mean it is the right thing. I’m Catholic and am grateful for the Nonestablishment Clause. I know enough about my own church history and well documented abuses to know what can happen if ANY faith gains political power. It’s a recipe for disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644/180 "2005-09-16T20:41:27Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Am not…are too…am not…are too…ad infinitum. So “[atheists are] bitter about religion” is not an assumption about how other people feel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reciting-pledge-of-allegiance-in-public-schools-ruled-unconstitutional-discuss/321644.md?page=10)