Reciting Pledge of Allegiance in public schools ruled unconstitutional. Discuss.

Perhaps worth examining is the underlying issue of SOCAS. First, there exists the abominable concept of “Ceremonial Deism,” the coinage of a former SCOTUS justice to describe the lip service paid by the public to a vaguely conceived god whose characteristics are delimited to the intersection of the various monotheistic faiths, vaguely Unitarian in concept if anything, without power to move the hearts of men. This otiose deity is invoked to avoid the necessity of considering “In God We Trust,” “under God” in the Pledge, and other such formularies as “establishments of religion” violating the First Commandment, with the resultant furore from those who consider that their God is the one insulted by requiring omission of His byname. IMNSHO Ceremonial Deism is not supportable either Constitutionally or theologically.

On the other hand, the strict “Wall of Separation” doctrine, though with hoary antecedents reaching back to Jefferson, is not the sole legitimate construction that may be placed on the Establishment Clause. Mme. Justice Sandra Day O’Connor a decade ago gave a structured argument to an alternate reading common in the 19th Century, which requires government to remain stringently neutral with regards to any religious belief. It is this reading which justifies the Lemon test and which validates the “faith-based” distribution of charitable assistance about which Mr. Bush has gotten a lot of flak, though it far predates his administration.

With regard to the issue of the Pledge in schools, I have to say that I do appreciate Saint Cad’s on-the-spot report. If conditions are as he reports, where there are indeed no repercussions among students for reciting or failing to recite the Pledge, then I see no violation. However, I wish to suggest two points: what is the case at his school and those of his colleagues may not be the case everywhere. Bunn Middle School, which my neighbors’ children attend, has a classic rural-North-Carolina conservatism, and I’m not confident that what works in “St. Cadville, CA” (since we don’t know exactly where in California he’s located) will work elsewhere. And this is a national issue: the rule must be the same for Fairfax County VA, New Rochelle NY, Blue Earth MN, Tuscaloosa AL, Key West FL, and Santa Monica CA. Second, I’m sure Saint Cad is ruefully aware of a truism: regarding what schoolkids’ attitudes really are, the teachers are often the last to know.

It’s worth noting, too, his final point on the issue: whether or not there is any compulsion or coercion exerted on the students, the faculty who are required to lead recitation of the Pledge are being mandated to express not merely their allegiance to the country but their belief in the Ceremonial Deity.

I wish to retell an anecdote here that touched me deeply, as perhaps providing another dimension on the issue. Three years ago, I took my three honorary grandchildren to the North Carolina Science Museum in Raleigh, and parked two blocks east of it. As we were walking from the car to the museum, we passed by the Legislative Building, which of course had the U.S. and N.C. flags flying in front of it. Jordan, the youngest, six the previous month, noticed the flags and pointed them out to his brother and sister. As one, they turned and, completely spontaneously, brought right hand to heart and recited the Pledge. They may have been slightly vague on some of the Pledge’s abstract concepts, but their patriotism was heartfelt and voluntary.

And it is that “liberty and justice for all” that matters, in the end, not whether someone may or may not utter the Pledge or require someone else to do so. A rather ironic comment made by a political columnist some years ago, to the effect that what made the Flag worth defending is that it symbolized a country where we are free to burn it if we so choose, comes to mind. What makes the Pledge worth reciting is that it avers our allegiance to a nation where we are free not to recite it if we so choose.

**The **court, or a court? But to quote one of my favorite posters on this message board: “the court is wrong”. :slight_smile:

I only say that half-jokingly because I have little doubt that that opinion will be overturned by **the **court (ie, the SCOTUS).

Yes, that’s an excellent point. And I don’t think there’s any question that the court would overturn the law if a teacher was the plaintiff rather than a student. That would then force the state to modify the law so that teachers didn’t have to lead the pledge. I suspect the state would still want the pledge to be recited, and could easily accomodate the change by have a recorded pledge read over the PA system. The teacher could then opt out.

It’s interesting that no teacher has stepped up to the plate on this. Or has one?

Wrong. Little if anything is as divisive as religion. Be honest; do you really think the majority would be so complacent if the words were 'under Satan" or “one nation in godlessness” ? The reason the majority doesn’t care is because it’s their beliefs being rammed down kids throats, not somebody else’s.

Frankly, bringing religion into school is the best way I can think of for promoting intolerance and violence; that’s simply the nature of the beast.

Los Angeles Unified

Very true. If a teacher is coersing a student into saying the Pledge OR allowing other students to do so, the teacher should be disciplined. But I’ve seen this occur with clothes the kids wear, race, pregnant students, etc. My point is that the problem is not with deism, atheism, the 1st amendment, etc. but unprofessional teachers not controlling themselves or their students. If teachers did take control and acted professionally this would be a non-issue since those that don’t want to say the Pledge wouldn’t feel the need to do so.

I hate saying the Pledge because of the “and justice for all” line. Justice in this country is more money = less punishment. If you’re poor or middle-class in this country and are ever charged with a crime, you’re screwed.

Scalia is very confused :confused:

Anybody have any links to Scalia explaining why he needs to go further than the words of the 1st amendment

John, if you don’t understand what hyperbole is, then I don’t know how I can explain it to you. If we’re going to play a game here where every word we write is to be taken ultra-literally, that’s going to sap all the enjoyment out of this discussion. I never meant to imply that all teachers will literally say those exact words, and so obviously the exact choice of phrasing I used was not intended to “bolster my case”. Let’s move on, indeed.

Only ridiculous and inneffective ways. I didn’t want to have to use this analogy, because I fear someone will take it out of context (which always seems to happen in these types of discussions), but I can’t think of any other way to explain it:

First of all, you’re right - I’m not objecting to the pledge itself, I’m objecting to the phrase “under God”. That and the fact that it is required as a class activity. (Whether a student can theoretically “opt out” doesn’t change the fact that the teacher is leading the class in this activity.)

Second, I am NOT objecting to “how it is handled” - I am objecting to it being required as a group activity. There is no way to “handle” it without, in effect, requiring participation. It is a group activity in a class for which attendance is required. It is not the business of government to tell children to pledge their allegiance to God.

There may be ways to “mitigate” it, but those ways are unacceptable. So on to the analogy. During segregation times, some considered the “seperate but equal” doctrine to be a way to mitigate the problem of racial discrimination. That argument did not hold up. You seem to be arguing that so long as any mitigating factor can be conceived of, that it is impossible to consider a given policy as unconstitutional. That’s just not true.

I don’t believe they are doing this, so that would be a moot point. You cannot declare a law or policy constitutional because of what might theoretically occur; you have to look at the actual situation.

Sure - restore it to its original form, sans “under God”. Problem solved. Sure, the pledge itself is stupid, too, but that’s an entirely different matter.

On what evidence do you base your statement that the pledge is optional? How is the pledge being led by teachers (that you know for a fact), that is giving students the option not to participate?

No, that’s not the argument I made at all. I’m not accusing any teachers of misconduct; I am saying that because the pledge is enforced as a group activity in public schools, there IS no effective alternative for the children. I’m not saying teachers are failing to let students opt out without being excluded or ostracized, I’m saying there IS no way to do so.

Yes, it would no longer be a seperation of church and state issue. In fact, there wouldn’t even BE an issue. If the words “under God” were removed, what argument would a student have that he should not be required to say the pledge?

Look, just stop pledging allegience to God in public schools, and the entire problem goes away. What’s so difficult about that?

Not surprising. Anyone who steps up to the plate will undoubtedly be subject to harassment and threats.

Ummm . . . the law? Teachers are not even allowed to ask the student why they do not want to say the pledge.

I suppose someone has long since answered this but I’ll have a stab at it anyway.

I think that if the Supreme Court refuses to hear an appeal the lower court ruling stands.

It was established in the U.S. Supreme Court decision West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1942) that students cannot be made to say the pledge; this was over ten years before “under God” was added to it.

How is “Ummm…the law” evidence of what teachers do or do not say to their students?

I understand that you are saying teachers are not legally allowed to force the students to participate. What I am asking you is how letting students out of the activity is being accomplished effectively, if at all.

Another analogy: There was a time when blacks were legally allowed to vote, but for all practical purposes were not being allowed to vote. Just saying, “They don’t have to say the pledge” is a non-answer. If there’s really no way to accomplish this without divisiveness, then it’s meaningless.

Thanks. I stand corrected. It’s a different issue, but I was incorrect to say that it’s not an issue.

By the way, maybe you can help me out here. I know there’s this California law that requires the pledge:
CALIFORNIA EDUCATION CODE

  1. In every public elementary school each day during the school year at the beginning of the first regularly scheduled class or activity period at which the majority of the pupils of the school normally begin the schoolday, there shall be conducted appropriate patriotic exercises. The giving of the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America shall satisfy the requirements of this section. In every public secondary school there shall be conducted daily appropriate patriotic exercises. The giving of the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America shall satisfy such requirement. Such patriotic exercises for secondary schools shall be conducted in accordance with the regulations which shall be adopted by the governing board of the district maintaining the secondary school.
    But what is this law you refer to that bars teachers from asking students why they don’t want to recite the pledge? Would that be a federal or state law? Could you give us the statute number?

Note that the law does not require the students say the Pledge but that the school must conduct the exercise. Thus CEC 52720 make it illegal for the teacher to not lead the PLedge. A court case mentioned earlier made it optional for the students.

I think it would be more correct to say An Atheist; there is no one who represents all Athiests. It is all individual thought It is very seldom that Atheists do anything as a group.

Monavis

You are right, of course. Christians and religionists don’t represent my thoughts either, but they are more organized than atheists.

The grounds certain students currently use is that their religion prohibits, as it in fact does, any type of pledge to a nation. These particular students are Jehovah’s Witnesses.

That is how many of us think. You’ve seen me and many others say it i different words over the years (or months in my case).

Strange. I would think that would be an ecellent way to start discussions on freedom of thought or freedom of conscience. It could lead to educational talk in schools about why someone would be allowed to not recite the Pledge, and how that choice is protected in this country through various laws and traditions.

To nitpick, you are objecting to the pledge since it does contain “under God”. What you are not objecting to is a modified Pledge which doesn’t contain that phrase. Fiine.

Of course it matters how the teacher handles it, and if you think the courts don’t take that into account, you simply don’t know how the courts work. And it’s factually incorrect to say that recitation of the pledge amounts to pledging allegiance to God. You’re not even acknowledging God if you don’t want to.

Bad analogy. “Seperat but equal” was determined to be inherently unequal. Equality was the issue, and it wasn’t being achieved. Children are routinely required to do things in school that they don’t want to do, or that others will ridicule them for doing incorrectly. That, in and of itself, is not a reason to ban something. But in the pledge case, they aren’t even required to do it.

Again, I am only doing what the courts typically do in examining a problem like this. Look at what the complaint is, and understand the motivation surrounding the complaint. Look at hypotheticals that would mitigate the problem and also giv some guidance to the legislature of what exactly would make the law past muster. And for this debating forum, it certainly helps put boundaries on the problem.

Nope. Some students (see above) still will not want to say the pledge, as it violates their freedom to practice their religion. You have to remember that the 1st amendment has two parts wrt religion-- the establish clausse and the free exercise clause.