# Recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's Capital; a Proud Moment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854 "2017-12-08T00:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/221 "2017-12-20T22:01:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That is definitely a Wikipedia article. I totally agree with you here and think you are 100% correct…it IS, in fact, a Wiki article. Good catch there. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/222 "2017-12-20T22:03:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [ul] > [li]Recognize Israel’s right to exist and be secure[/li][li]Renounce terrorism[/li][li]Stop firing rockets at Israel[/li][li]Negotiate in good faith for the West Bank and Gaza in return for an end to the settlements[/li][li]Realize that they are not going to get anything by stalling[/li][li]In general, recognize that the losers do not get to dictate terms to the winners[/li][/ul] > Regards, > Shodan I’m genuinely surprised you didn’t add “give up the demand for a ‘right of return’ for all Palestinian refugees”. That’s been one of the main sticking points. I’m also surprised none advocating for the Palestinians have mentioned it. Were I from Ramallah I wouldn’t be terribly confident in their knowledge or understanding of my situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/223 "2017-12-20T22:05:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [State of Palestine - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine) Were you to go into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with such a map that would be seen as an insult to the Palestinian people and their cause. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/224 "2017-12-20T22:06:39Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > US vetoes otherwise unanimous Security Council vote (including France and the UK) declaring the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital illegal. > [U.S. Vetoes U.N. Security Council Resolution Voiding Trump's Jerusalem Move : The Two-Way : NPR](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/18/571653304/u-s-vetoes-u-n-security-council-resolution-voiding-trumps-jerusalem-move) And then to double down on the stupid [Donald Trump threatens to cut aid to UN members](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-21/donald-trump-will-take-vote-on-jerusalem-personally/9278056) over vote. > [@](#): > > “They take hundreds of millions of dollars and even billions of dollars, and then they vote against us. Well, we’re watching those votes. Let them vote against us. We’ll save a lot. We don’t care,” Mr Trump told reporters at the White House. Mr Trump’s comments come after the US Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley said she “will be taking names” during the General Assembly vote. Even with GOP control of both houses he can get barely 2/3rds of 3/5ths of his agenda enacted domestically but he’s going to shove the deplorables agenda down the throats of the rest of the world. Another “Proud Moment”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/225 "2017-12-20T22:11:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m genuinely surprised you didn’t add “give up the demand for a ‘right of return’ for all Palestinian refugees”. Most of the actual people who left are dead now, or will be before too long. It’s been 70 years, after all. As for their descendants, a thread about Israel is no place to advocate somebody has the right to return to their ancestral homeland. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/226 "2017-12-20T22:19:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Most of the actual people who left are dead now, or will be before too long. It’s been 70 years, after all. Yes, Isreal should concede this point. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/227 "2017-12-21T01:09:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Two states means one war. > > – some random Israeli I saw on the PBS Newshour I understand why the Israeli government behaves the way they do, this is a mature republic and the government is elected … they’re expanding settlements because that’s what the voters want them to do … However, I have no idea why the Palestinian government behaves in the way it does … just about everyplace else in the world, it’s illegal to build rocket launchers on top of elementary schools and use the children as human shields … it’s as though Hamas doesn’t care about the people it governs, noting how many Palestinian rockets land on Palestinian neighborhoods … if I launch 10 rockets at Sacramento, and two land in Redding, I’m going to be in BIG trouble, like police showing up at my door trouble … apparently that doesn’t happen in the West Bank … perhaps this “government” is just a bunch of terrorists using the average Palestinian as an excuse … The Ottomans seemed to have worked it out, maybe let Russia go in and do the same thing there … is peace our goal? … we all know Putin will make it peaceful there in a hurry … ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/228 "2017-12-21T02:12:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That is not an incentive for Israel to negotiate. How are you supposed to negotiate with a group that can’t even decide who represents it? My understanding is that, though they have occasional elections in Palestine, Israel doesn’t allow the Palestinians to freely engage in political activity. How are they supposed to decide who represents them? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/229 "2017-12-21T03:15:09Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > My understanding is that, though they have occasional elections in Palestine, Israel doesn’t allow the Palestinians to freely engage in political activity. How are they supposed to decide who represents them? I’m not sure what you mean by “occasional”. They haven’t had elections in Gaza in nearly ten years years and the West Bank is only slightly better. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/230 "2017-12-21T04:06:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > They haven’t had elections in Gaza in nearly ten years years and the West Bank is only slightly better. They did have West Bank elections at the beginning of the year. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/231 "2017-12-21T04:33:22Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I understand why the Israeli government behaves the way they do, this is a mature republic and the government is elected … they’re expanding settlements because that’s what the voters want them to do … > > However, I have no idea why the Palestinian government behaves in the way it does … just about everyplace else in the world, it’s illegal to build rocket launchers on top of elementary schools and use the children as human shields … it’s as though Hamas doesn’t care about the people it governs, noting how many Palestinian rockets land on Palestinian neighborhoods … if I launch 10 rockets at Sacramento, and two land in Redding, I’m going to be in BIG trouble, like police showing up at my door trouble … apparently that doesn’t happen in the West Bank … perhaps this “government” is just a bunch of terrorists using the average Palestinian as an excuse … > > The Ottomans seemed to have worked it out, maybe let Russia go in and do the same thing there … is peace our goal? … we all know Putin will make it peaceful there in a hurry … Because the long term goal of the Palestinians is to win in the court of public opinion of the unaligned world, and to have Israel firing anti-missile missiles at those elementary schools make Israel look bad. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/232 "2017-12-21T04:37:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > They did have West Bank elections at the beginning of the year. I don’t think they’ve had presidential elections in the West Bank since 2005. Like I said “slightly better.” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/233 "2017-12-21T06:28:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, the Palestinians are fellow humans. Now can they stop firing rockets and negotiate in good faith? First let’s acknowledge just how desperate the rocket attacks are: they rarely injure anyone and the retaliation is usually far more severe. That’s not justifying the attacks at all, just trying to add a little context. If fatah is partly organizing those attacks, that shows not just how desperate they are but also how _aware_ they are of how desperate things have got. So it’s all very well saying “Stop the rockets, then we’ll talk” but of course from their POV they see it as “Stop the rockets and we have no reason to listen to you at all: prepare to be steamrolled”. Meanwhile if they are not complicit in those attacks, then that shows how little control they have. It seems they must cooperate fully with the IDF to rout these groups but of course a degree of trust must be established first. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/234 "2017-12-21T13:53:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Fatah and Hamas. [Here ya go.](https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/1.817272) A unified Palestinian government would be a big step forward, so here’s hoping it works out this time. > [@](#): > > Palestine is a “state” even tho perhaps not a nation. As already said, it’s a nation but not a state. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That is not an incentive for Israel to negotiate. How are you supposed to negotiate with a group that can’t even decide who represents it? And even if you do find somebody to negotiate an agreement with, how do you know they will be able to make people abide by the terms? So you’d think Israel would be pushing for a unified Palestinian government, right? Well, the last time unification was attempted, in 2014, Israel strongly opposed it and suspended talks with Fatah. More evidence that Israel’s government is more interested in the status quo than a chance of progress. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/235 "2017-12-21T19:12:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So you’d think Israel would be pushing for a unified Palestinian government, right? Well, the last time unification was attempted, in 2014, Israel strongly opposed it and suspended talks with Fatah. More evidence that Israel’s government is more interested in the status quo than a chance of progress. Israel suspended the talks because they won’t deal with Hamas because of Hamas’ actions, such as blowing up school buses, which they regard as terrorist actions. Now, do I think it’s bit silly to talk to Fatah but not Hamas. Sure, but no sillier than the British government negotiating with Sinn Fein but saying they wouldn’t have discussions with the military wing but that’s the way the British insisted. Beyond that the Israelis refused because Hamas has repeatedly made it clear they would never agree to any settlement that allowed for the continued existence of Israel, that the most they would ever concede was a temporary ceasefire or “hudna”. Finally, just read the Hamas Covenant and see what it says about Jews. > [@](#): > > With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein.\*\* They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there.\*\* **With their money, they formed secret societies, such as Freemason, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests**. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there Now leaving aside the anti-Semitic canards anyone who believes the Jews used the Freemasons and “rotary clubs” to control the world is not sane. Is it really surprising that Jews particularly those of whom half are the descendants of European Jews who fled from the Holocaust and Half fled Islamic persecution in the Muslim Middle East would find negotiating with people who say things like the below statement to be a deal breaker. > [@](#): > > “The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, ‘O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’ Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/236 "2017-12-21T20:37:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Israel suspended the talks because they won’t deal with Hamas because of Hamas’ actions, such as blowing up school buses, which they regard as terrorist actions. > > Now, do I think it’s bit silly to talk to Fatah but not Hamas. Sure, but no sillier than the British government negotiating with Sinn Fein but saying they wouldn’t have discussions with the military wing but that’s the way the British insisted. > > Beyond that the Israelis refused because Hamas has repeatedly made it clear they would never agree to any settlement that allowed for the continued existence of Israel, that the most they would ever concede was a temporary ceasefire or “hudna”. Sure, if you want to call 10 years “temporary” A lot can happen in ten years of peace. Old hatred may die or grow cold in the glow of economic prosperity (see Korea and Japan). > [@](#): > > Finally, just read the Hamas Covenant and see what it says about Jews. Haven’t several Hamas leaders backed away from the worst of those statements several times over the decades? Its about as meaningful as saying we’re going to make the Mexicans pay for the wall. > [@](#): > > Now leaving aside the anti-Semitic canards anyone who believes the Jews used the Freemasons and “rotary clubs” to control the world is not sane. > > Is it really surprising that Jews particularly those of whom half are the descendants of European Jews who fled from the Holocaust and Half fled Islamic persecution in the Muslim Middle East would find negotiating with people who say things like the below statement to be a deal breaker. There’s lots of silly shit in religious texts. They’re not going to amend the Quran so by your rationale, the Jews will NEVER deal with Muslims (even though that’s exactly what they tried to do before the UN created Israel). Peace will be possible when both sides are at the brink of destruction. One day both sides will have nukes. Perhaps they will have peace that day. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/237 "2017-12-21T21:00:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sure, if you want to call 10 years “temporary” A lot can happen in ten years of peace. Old hatred may die or grow cold in the glow of economic prosperity (see Korea and Japan). > > Haven’t several Hamas leaders backed away from the worst of those statements several times over the decades? Its about as meaningful as saying we’re going to make the Mexicans pay for the wall. > > There’s lots of silly shit in religious texts. They’re not going to amend the Quran so by your rationale, the Jews will NEVER deal with Muslims (even though that’s exactly what they tried to do before the UN created Israel). > > Peace will be possible when both sides are at the brink of destruction. One day both sides will have nukes. Perhaps they will have peace that day. Which Hamas leaders have repudiated their charter or, if you prefer, Covenant? I’m not aware of any. And why are you talking about the Quran and “religious texts? All quotes were from Hamas’ charter. I never mentioned or quoted the Quran. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/238 "2017-12-22T00:57:56Z")
The thing you quoted about the rocks and trees is part of Hama’s charter, but it originally comes from a Hadith (not the actual Quaran but a kind of addendum to it, I gather.) I think that’s what he’s referring to. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/239 "2017-12-22T01:01:53Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > The thing you quoted about the rocks and trees is part of Hama’s charter, but it originally comes from a Hadith (not the actual Quaran but a kind of addendum to it, I gather.) I think that’s what he’s referring to. While that is true, using such a quote as part of your charter does not seem very diplomatic. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/240 "2017-12-22T01:05:05Z")
No argument there, I’m just saying, he was asking what “religious texts” the previous poster was referring to…that’s the answer. I recognized it because I’ve definitely seen it quoted before, and not necessarily in the context of Israel/Palestine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854.md?page=13)