# Recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's Capital; a Proud Moment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854 "2017-12-08T00:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/281 "2018-01-02T21:10:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Look, Isreal for the last 70 years has had total political control over Jerulsalem. What is with the repeated misspelling of Israel? Is it a political or religious jab? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/282 "2018-01-02T21:11:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Seriously? What else do you think the settlements program, and the widespread popular support for it, could possibly mean? How about the wall on Palestinian property? > . Wall? Look, Isreal has to put some pressure on the Palestinians, otherwise the staus quo, which benefits the terrorists & polititians but not the people of Palestine will continue forever, with terror attacks and retaliation forever, and the Palestinian people getting worse and worse off. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/283 "2018-01-02T21:13:11Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What is with the repeated misspelling of Israel? Is it a political or religious jab? 😕 My spellchecker stopped working for this site, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/284 "2018-01-02T21:20:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Wall? > > Look, Isreal has to put some pressure on the Palestinians, otherwise the staus quo, which benefits the terrorists & polititians but not the people of Palestine will continue forever, with terror attacks and retaliation forever, and the Palestinian people getting worse and worse off. Yes, their plight is entirely their own responsibility. Nothing anyone else can do about it, or should. It’s all the other guys’ problem. Is that it? It’s certainly easy, and even gratifyingly self-righteous, to think so, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/285 "2018-01-02T21:25:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, their plight is entirely their own responsibility. Nothing anyone else can do about it, or should. It’s all the other guys’ problem. > > Is that it? It’s certainly easy, and even gratifyingly self-righteous, to think so, I’m sure. If you read back, I also blamed the current very Conservative government of Israel. But yes, most of the blame is due to the terrorist Palestinian leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/286 "2018-01-02T21:38:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [It’s already here.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-pan-outrageous-likud-support-for-annexing-parts-of-west-bank/) Likud is already calling for the squatter “settlements” to be annexed, claiming Trump’s support for it. > > With no two-state solution possible anymore, that leaves only one state. It can be either democratic or ethnic-supremacist but not both, as the white South Africans eventually realized - and the Bantustan program was what finally toppled that regime. Quelle grande suprise. > [@DrDeth](#): > > A two state solution is indeed still possible. Just have the Palestinians led by a _Real_ist instead of a _Terror_ist. But of course, it would be so ruining the purity of the intentions, one can never ever have success if ever a leader of uMkhonto we Sizwe were ever to be negotiated with. It is so unique and so great the double standard to expect this. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/287 "2018-01-02T22:43:10Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > But of course, it would be so ruining the purity of the intentions, one can never ever have success if ever a leader of uMkhonto we Sizwe were ever to be negotiated with. Not sure how many people would get the reference. I think it’s more relevant that Likud evolved out of two different terrorist groups; the Stern Gang/Lehi and Irgun and the Arabs were willing to negotiate with both Begin and Shamir. For that matter, while he was never labeled a terrorist, Sharon did some pretty disgusting things and could legitimately IMHO be called a mass murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/288 "2018-01-02T23:11:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Not sure how many people would get the reference. what he was only labelled a terrorsist by the americans, but they like to whitewash the history ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/289 "2018-01-02T23:20:33Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > what he was only labelled a terrorsist by the americans, but they like to whitewash the history I’m not sure how many people have heard of the Spear of the Nation. That was my point. While it’s largely beside the point, classifying them as a terrorist group is as legitimate as classifying the IRA, Irgun, and the FLN as terrorist groups. Again, I don’t think the “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” is terribly compelling coming from the Likud party and their supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/290 "2018-01-02T23:26:15Z")
Humor, persi. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/291 "2018-01-02T23:30:28Z")
Elvis: > [@](#): > > Seriously? What else do you think the settlements program, and the widespread popular support for it, could possibly mean? It means that RIGHT NOW, in the absence of any negotiations, the Israeli government favors this policy. It does not mean that a Palestinian state cannot be created, including the settlements with the current residents removed to Israel proper, as a result of negotiations. Remember that the Israeli government once also favored Israeli settlement in Gaza, but they decided that ultimately it was in their best interests to remove those settlers. They also, before 1979, did plenty of building in the Sinai, but handed it back to Egypt as a result of the treaty. If they decide that it will be in their best interests (i.e., to achieve a peace treaty as a result of negotiations) to evacuate the West Bank settlements, they will do so as well. It also does not mean that the settlement situation going forward is any more of an issue for future negotiations than the current settlement situation. Settlements are already there and are an issue to be dealt with, more of them doesn’t change that. If a two-state solution was at all possible with 100 settlements, it’s equally possible with 120 settlements. > [@](#): > > How about the wall on Palestinian property? What, you mean the wall that the Israelis built back in the early 2000’s? That was a security measure, because there was a major wave of terrorist attacks from the West Bank at the time. What does that have to do with Netanyahu talking about building more settlements nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/292 "2018-01-02T23:37:17Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > It means that RIGHT NOW, in the absence of any negotiations, the Israeli government favors this policy. :rolleyes: Begging the question. \*Why \*do they favor it? I think we both know, even if only one of us is willing to say it. And we can skip all your blather about what it does not mean, what \*does \*it mean? There’s no value in your evading it. > [@](#): > > What does that have to do with Netanyahu talking about building more settlements nowadays? The wall is similarly evidence that Israel and its yahoos elsewhere have no intention of ever dealing in true good faith with the Palestinians as neighbors. And please don’t put it on Netanyahu, btw. He’s only doing what he was elected to do. I think you know that too. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/293 "2018-01-02T23:52:08Z")
What’s obvious here is that it’s not about Jerusalem, it’s about Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. Stop pretending. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/294 "2018-01-03T00:17:43Z")
If you mean the subject is ethnic supremacism vs. democracy, I am doing exactly the opposite of pretending. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/295 "2018-01-03T00:31:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you mean the subject is ethnic supremacism vs. democracy, I am doing exactly the opposite of pretending. How about you? Ethnic supremacism? That’s a new one on me. And as for democracy, do you mean, as they say in Africa or the Arab Middle East, “[One Person, One Vote, One Time](http://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/one-person-one-vote-one-time-22583)”? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/296 "2018-01-03T01:45:34Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Ethnic supremacism? That’s a new one on me. And as for democracy, do you mean, as they say in Africa or the Arab Middle East, “[One Person, One Vote, One Time](http://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/one-person-one-vote-one-time-22583)”? Democracy as in if Israel ever annexes the West Bank de jure, they will either become an apartheid nation, where the Arab/Palestinian majority don’t get any votes, or they become a non-Jewish nation, because the Palestinians outnumber the Israelis. Any one-state solution is the death of the Israeli soul. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/297 "2018-01-03T01:53:16Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > What’s obvious here is that it’s not about Jerusalem, it’s about Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. Stop pretending. I would say that your sources are the real pretenders, they are the ones that tell us that it is about Israel’s existence when it comes from many conservative evangelicals, but in reality it is about dispensationalism, and the practical and final _disposal_ of the Jewish state. > **[For evangelicals, Jerusalem is about prophecy, not politics | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/08/opinions/jerusalem-israel-evangelicals-end-times-butler-bass-opinion/index.html)** > > Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem pleases evangelical Christians because they see it as a step toward the end-times, says Diana Butler Bass. > [@](#): > > When the President issued his order, I was not the only person hearing echoes of dispensationalism. Robert Jeffress, one of Trump’s evangelical advisers, declared: “Jerusalem has been the object of the affection of both Jews and Christians down through history and the touchstone of prophecy.” > > Other evangelical pastors and teachers also praised the action as “biblical” and likened it to a “fulfilled prophecy.” > > While that may sound benign (or perhaps nutty) to the theologically uninitiated, they are referring to the “prophecy” of the conversion of the Jews, the second coming of Jesus, the final judgment, and the end of the world – the events referred to as the biblical apocalypse. > > I doubt that President Trump could explain dispensational pre-millennialism. I doubt he knows the term. But his evangelical supporters know it. Some of his advisers are probably whispering these prophecies in his ears. Trump might not really care how they interpret the Bible, but he cares that white evangelicals continue to stand with him. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem is one way to affirm his commitment to these evangelicals – reminding them that he, Donald J. Trump, is pressing biblical history forward to its conclusion and that he is God’s man in the unfolding of these last days. > > I may not believe it – anymore, at least. You may not believe it. Donald Trump might not even truly believe it. But millions do. That IMHO tells me that while the people of Israel can be glad for the support they get by a president that is all hat and really no religious cattle now, the worrisome item is that eventually Evangelicals will grow tired to see the lamb (Israel) that they _knew_ were fattening for the slaughter to happily ignore the prophecy (that, if you know the Christian Bible, is not kind at all with the Jewish people that for starters do not think that Jesus was the Messiah.) IOW, I do think that Israel should not be asking for help from politicians that have followers that only look at you as an expected sacrificial lamb when we “are so close to end of times”, as in having guys that are experting payment soon. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/298 "2018-01-03T02:07:29Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I would say that your sources are the real pretenders, they are the ones that tell us that it is about Israel’s existence when it comes from many conservative evangelicals, but in reality it is about dispensationalism, and the practical and final _disposal_ of the Jewish state. > IOW, I do think that Israel should not be asking for help from politicians that have followers that only look at you as an expected sacrificial lamb when we “are so close to end of times”, as in having guys that are experting payment soon. I think that the number of evangalicals that beleive this is very small, and the number of politicians even less. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/299 "2018-01-03T02:21:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I think that the number of evangalicals that beleive this is very small, and the number of politicians even less. If you read it again, you will see that I do notice that politicians like Trump are **pandering**. As for support, the evangelicals in favor of Israel surveyed reported that: > **[New Poll Shows 90% of Pro-Israel Evangelicals Support Trump](https://israel365news.com/311528/new-poll-shows-90-pro-israel-evangelicals-support-trump/)** > > A poll by Israel365 has found that pro-Israel Evangelical Christian voters are maintaining their strong support for presidential candidate Donald Trump during the contentious US election. > [@](#): > > A poll by Israel365 has found that pro-Israel Evangelical Christian voters are maintaining their strong support for presidential candidate Donald Trump during the contentious US election. > > In an email survey sent to 150,000 Israel365 daily newsletter subscribers, Israel365 asked readers which candidate he or she felt was better for Israel: Republican Donald Trump, or Democrat Hillary Clinton. > > According to Shlomo Schreibman, Vice President of the Israel Media Network, which specializes in marketing to the pro-Israel Evangelical crowd, “These findings are very interesting because while we knew a majority of Evangelicals support Trump, we were surprised by the overwhelming 90 percent support for Donald Trump.” Other polls show about how many evangelicals look at biblical prophesy or that we are at the “end of times” [https://www.charismanews.com/us/40965-poll-most-evangelicals-believe-we-re-living-in-the-end-times](https://www.charismanews.com/us/40965-poll-most-evangelicals-believe-we-re-living-in-the-end-times) > [@](#): > > According to its summer 2013 OmniPoll survery, the Barna Group, a well-respected faith and culture research company in Ventura, Calif., found that 41 percent of U.S. adults, 54 percent of Protestants and 77 percent of evangelicals believe the world is now living in the biblical end times. > > When asked, “Do you, personally, believe that the world is currently living in the ‘end times’ as described by prophecies in the Bible, or not?” a startling 41 percent of all participants said yes. > > The number was even higher for Protestants, with a figure representing just over 1 in 2 Protestant adults. The highest number registered was by evangelicals, with 3 out of 4 evangelical Christians in America believing the world is living in the end times. > **[Poll: 4 in 10 Americans Believe They are Living in the End Times](https://www.christianpost.com/news/poll-4-in-10-americans-believe-they-are-living-in-the-end-times-104423/)** > > A recent poll has found that 41 percent of American adults believe the end times have arrived ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/300 "2018-01-03T09:00:03Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > What’s obvious here is that it’s not about Jerusalem, it’s about Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. Stop pretending. another attempt at distraction we see like the idiotic, factually completely failed Berlin attempt. Of course no person here made any statement like this. > [@JBGUSA](#): > > Ethnic supremacism? That’s a new one on me. And as for democracy, do you mean, as they say in Africa or the Arab Middle East, “[One Person, One Vote, One Time](http://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/one-person-one-vote-one-time-22583)”? Oh I see it is also the bigotted political assertions demarche as well, dredged up from the _ **1970s** _ like so much of the rhetoric and the examples you use. But Mr mandela the terrorist, yes he resulted in one vote one time… oh wait… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854.md?page=16)