# Recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's Capital; a Proud Moment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854 "2017-12-08T00:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/301 "2018-01-03T16:42:14Z")
> **[Iranian-backed terror cell uncovered in West Bank, agent arrested](https://www.foxnews.com/world/iranian-backed-terror-cell-uncovered-in-west-bank-agent-arrested)** > > An Iranian-backed terror cell intent on launching espionage missions and terror attacks in the West Bank was uncovered by Israeli security forces, authorities said Wednesday. \*The activities that have been exposed illustrate Iranian involvement in the encouragement of terror against Israel and exposes the arms that are sent by Iran to different countries around the world for the sake of promoting hostile activities against Israel,” the statement read. The announcement came shortly after the Israeli military said Islamic Jihad was believed responsible for firing Iranian-made mortars at Israel from the Gaza Strip last\* week. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/302 "2018-01-03T17:09:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Any one-state solution is the death of the Israeli soul. And the birth of a new one, without the baggage, no? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I do think that Israel should not be asking for help from politicians that have followers that only look at you as an expected sacrificial lamb when we “are so close to end of times”, as in having guys that are experting payment soon. If you’re pretty confident that these are \*not \*the End Times (barring some clown with short fingers pushing a button), then taking any goodies you’re given by the believers is entirely understandable. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/303 "2018-01-03T17:19:40Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > > [@JBGUSA](#): > > > > …the Arab portions of the West Bank would have been obliterated long ago. > > [FONT="]how telling, the phrase, but it is without doubt there is the coming apologia for the bantustans policies developing. Before East Pakistan became Bangladesh after a bloody struggle would you have referred to either East or West Pakistan as a bantustan? Is Kaliningrad a bantustan? I’m going to help you here since you probably haven’t heard of Kaliningrad, see [The Forgotten Russian Enclave of Kaliningrad](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwi70Y-cpLzYAhWslOAKHYTwDcQQFghFMAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vice.com%2Fen_us%2Farticle%2Fgqwayy%2Fthe-forgotten-russian-enclave-of-kaliningrad&usg=AOvVaw04vGm18X_muOowdfMBXsYp). Is Singapore a bantustan? Hint, Malaysia kicked them out of the country in 1964 because of its Christian identity. Is Alaska a bantustan? > [@Ramira](#): > > It is as convincing as your pretenses on the political spectrum alignment. I am liberal in the sense that I think that “budget cuts” or “tax cuts” aimed squarely at the poor are bad policy. As is a climate treaty aimed at the poor of the United States. how telling, the phrase, but it is without doubt there is the coming apologia for the bantustans policies developing. [/quote] Before East Pakistan became Bangladesh after a bloody struggle would you have referred to either East or West Pakistan as a bantustan? Is Kaliningrad a bantustan? I’m going to help you here since you probably haven’t heard of Kaliningrad, see [The Forgotten Russian Enclave of Kaliningrad](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwi70Y-cpLzYAhWslOAKHYTwDcQQFghFMAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vice.com%2Fen_us%2Farticle%2Fgqwayy%2Fthe-forgotten-russian-enclave-of-kaliningrad&usg=AOvVaw04vGm18X_muOowdfMBXsYp). Is Singapore a bantustan? Hint, Malaysia kicked them out of the country in 1964 because of its Christian identity. Is Alaska a bantustan? > [@Ramira](#): > > It is as convincing as your pretenses on the political spectrum alignment. I am liberal in the sense that I think that “budget cuts” or “tax cuts” aimed squarely at the poor are bad policy. As is a climate treaty aimed at the poor of the United States.[/FONT] ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/304 "2018-01-03T17:43:00Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Is Singapore a bantustan? Hint, Malaysia kicked them out of the country in 1964 because of its Christian identity. What are you talking about? Singapore does not have a “Christian identity”. [Today, it is 18.8% Christian. Back in 1980, it was 9.9%.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Singapore#cite_note-Singapore_Census_2010-5) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/305 "2018-01-03T17:43:30Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > [FONT="]Before East Pakistan became Bangladesh after a bloody struggle would you have referred to either East or West Pakistan as a bantustan? Is Kaliningrad a bantustan? I’m going to help you here since you probably haven’t heard of Kaliningrad, see [The Forgotten Russian Enclave of Kaliningrad](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwi70Y-cpLzYAhWslOAKHYTwDcQQFghFMAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vice.com%2Fen_us%2Farticle%2Fgqwayy%2Fthe-forgotten-russian-enclave-of-kaliningrad&usg=AOvVaw04vGm18X_muOowdfMBXsYp). Is Singapore a bantustan? Hint, Malaysia kicked them out of the country in 1964 because of its Christian identity. Is Alaska a bantustan? What the fuck are you on about? ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/306 "2018-01-03T17:45:05Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > The situation has not been “stable” for 70 years. Four wars on ongoing terror is not stability. If Israel were barbaric Gaza and the Arab portions of the West Bank would have been obliterated long ago. > [@Ramira](#): > > how telling, the phrase, but it is without doubt there is the coming apologia for the bantustans policies developing. > But again the strawman non response (aobut things not even mentioned or stated…) to try to disguise the complete lack of foundation for the silly assertion replied to. > > It is as convincing as your pretenses on the political spectrum alignment. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > What are you talking about? Singapore does not have a “Christian identity”. [Today, it is 18.8% Christian. Back in 1980, it was 9.9%.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Singapore#cite_note-Singapore_Census_2010-5) I’m sorry, I forgot the Buddhists. But everyone else plays nicely. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What the fuck are you on about? Grammar? You’re trying to say something. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/307 "2018-01-03T17:53:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What the fuck are you on about? This is like a squid shooting out a cloud of ink to hide itself while it swims away madly. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/308 "2018-01-03T18:04:13Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > I’m sorry, I forgot the Buddhists. But everyone else plays nicely. It wasn’t a religious issue at all. I’m not sure you understand what a Bantustan is. While Singapore was part of Malaysia, it held 15 seats in the Malaysian Parliament. Alaska is equal to the other states, and enjoys proportional representation in the House of Representatives, and equal representation in the Senate. Kaliningrad is an oblast of Russia, equal to the other oblasts, and sends representatives to the Duma. Tell me, do the Palestinians hold any seats in the Knesset? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/309 "2018-01-03T18:17:27Z")
The key to the Bantustans was limiting the locations people could live based on their race. It was a less-violent form of ethnic cleansing. Malaysia never forced Chinese people to move to Singapore, nor did West Pakistan force Bengali Muslims to move to Bangladesh. Kaliningrad was one of many regions of Europe where ethnic Germans were expelled after the war, but Stalin never made anyone move \*to \*it other than Russians. If your point is that Israel is doing nothing that Stalin didn’t do, then you really might want to reconsider your support for it. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/310 "2018-01-03T18:40:13Z")
So the illogical flailing respones continues > [@JBGUSA](#): > > Before East Pakistan became Bangladesh after a bloody struggle would you have referred to either East or West Pakistan as a bantustan? Bizarre. There is not even any logical comparison or any connection in the concept… It is the random flailing around I guess. > [@](#): > > Is Kaliningrad a bantustan? Since the Soviets annexed the city from the old Prussian territory as a deliberate action and completely ethnically cleansed it of the majority native German population - resettling with the Soviet and preferably Russian population it is not even logically comparable (except to make the opposite point you incompetently try to make). What a total failure of an attempt at a distraction. > [@](#): > > I’m going to help you here since you probably haven’t heard of Kaliningrad, This is very funny coming from someone who has no idea at all about the European history and made such a fool out of himself in his attempt at talking about Berlin. > [@](#): > > Is Singapore a bantustan? Hint, Malaysia kicked them out of the country in 1964 because of its Christian identity. Hint… No in fact there is no “Christian identity” for Singapore, this is a pure fiction you likely are repeating from the bizarre extreme right sources you read. Of course there is no relationship > [@](#): > > Is Alaska a bantustan? ??? My god what a complete disconnected… You appear by this list of complete failures of analogical examples to have _ **no idea** _ what the Bantustan policy was by the South African white supramacist government, any more than you had any idea at all what the history of the DDR and the BRD and the reunification and Berlin history really was. This is the politest interpretation of your bizarre resposne. The remainder of the pretending as the agitation-propaganda attempt I have no interest in. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > This is like a squid shooting out a cloud of ink to hide itself while it swims away madly. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/311 "2018-01-03T18:48:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The key to the Bantustans was limiting the locations people could live based on their race. It was a less-violent form of ethnic cleansing. Less violent? The slower motion maybe > [@](#): > > Kaliningrad was one of many regions of Europe where ethnic Germans were expelled after the war, but Stalin never made anyone move \*to \*it other than Russians. At least the Slavics Soviet citizens… not the doubtful ethnicities of the era to be certain. So actually it is the opposite of the point he thought he was making. > [@](#): > > If your point is that Israel is doing nothing that Stalin didn’t do, then you really might want to reconsider your support for it. Double standard! Did you criticize Stalin???@@!!!.. ha. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/312 "2018-01-03T18:59:53Z")
Arent we getting more than a little offtrack? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/313 "2018-01-03T19:04:24Z")
What track is there? The random news stories? Or the OP’s pretensions about the political color and the incoherent non historical assertions he makes? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/314 "2018-01-03T20:34:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [It’s already here.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-pan-outrageous-likud-support-for-annexing-parts-of-west-bank/) Likud is already calling for the squatter “settlements” to be annexed, claiming Trump’s support for it. > > With no two-state solution possible anymore, that leaves only one state. It can be either democratic or ethnic-supremacist but not both, as the white South Africans eventually realized - and the Bantustan program was what finally toppled that regime. Neither of those are the one-state solutions that Trump and friends were apparently envisioning/fantasizing. Courtesy of [a report in NY Magazine](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/michael-wolff-fire-and-fury-book-donald-trump.html) today centered around Steve Bannon: > [@](#): > > Pivoting from Trump himself, Bannon plunged on with the Trump agenda. “Day one we’re [moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/why-is-trump-intent-on-moving-the-u-s-embassy-to-jerusalem.html). Netanyahu’s all-in. Sheldon” — Adelson, the casino billionaire and far-right Israel defender — “is all-in. We know where we’re heading on this … Let Jordan take the West Bank, let Egypt take Gaza. Let them deal with it. Or sink trying.” ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/315 "2018-01-03T21:02:13Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > This is very funny coming from someone who has no idea at all about the European history and made such a fool out of himself in his attempt at talking about Berlin. Do not personalize arguments in this fashion. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/316 "2018-01-03T21:26:57Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > . . . made such a fool out of himself . . . Do not resort to nae calling in this discussion. Challenge the facts and ideas. Do not ridicule the poster. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/317 "2018-01-03T23:13:04Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Before East Pakistan became Bangladesh after a bloody struggle would you have referred to either East or West Pakistan as a bantustan? Is Kaliningrad a bantustan? I’m going to help you here since you probably haven’t heard of Kaliningrad, see [The Forgotten Russian Enclave of Kaliningrad](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwi70Y-cpLzYAhWslOAKHYTwDcQQFghFMAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vice.com%2Fen_us%2Farticle%2Fgqwayy%2Fthe-forgotten-russian-enclave-of-kaliningrad&usg=AOvVaw04vGm18X_muOowdfMBXsYp). I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to say here and I don’t think I’m alone. Could you possibly rephrase this portion of your post. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/318 "2018-01-04T03:28:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to say here and I don’t think I’m alone. Could you possibly rephrase this portion of your post. To my mind creating a bantustan is splitting what should be a country up into a patchwork of real estate dependent on the surrounding country. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/319 "2018-01-04T03:39:58Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > To my mind creating a bantustan is splitting what should be a country up into a patchwork of real estate dependent on the surrounding country. Am I wrong? Yes. Bantustans were territories within apartheid-era South Africa where blacks were supposedly given autonomy. “Look! See? We’re letting the blacks rule themselves.” Which, of course, was anything but the case. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854/320 "2018-01-04T14:05:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Which Hamas leaders have repudiated their charter or, if you prefer, Covenant? I’m not aware of any. I don’t recall using the word “repudiated” Why do you feel the need to put words in my mouth to try and make yourself right? Are you saying that no Hamas leaders have “backed away from the worst of the statements in the charter” (this is what I actually said, do you see how this is different from saying that Hamas leaders have “repupdiated” their charter)? > **[Hamas Charter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant#Relevance_of_the_Charter_in_the_21st_century)** > > Hamas charter can refer to: > [@](#): > > And why are you talking about the Quran and “religious texts? All quotes were from Hamas’ charter. I never mentioned or quoted the Quran. I shouldn’t have said Quran. But the hadiths are religious texts, right? You may not have intended to quote a hadith when you quoted the Hamas Charter but the Hamas charter was quoting a hadith in your selected quote of the Hamas charter. > **[Antisemitism in Islam | Hadith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism#Hadith)** > > The hadith (non-Quranic accounts of Muhammad) use both Banu Israil and Yahud as terms for Jews, the latter term becoming ever more frequent and appearing mostly in negative context. For example, Jews were "cursed and changed into rats" in Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:54:524 (see also Sahih Muslim, 42:7135 Sahih Muslim, 42:7136). > According to Norman Stillman: As I was googling this, I discovered (as you probably knew) that Hamas is rewriting their charter to at least tacitly recognize a two state solution by saying that they would be OK with a Palestine along 1967 borders. I don’t know if this is enough for peace but it seems like progress. Maybe in another 70 years we will have more progress. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-a-proud-moment/803854.md?page=17)