# Recommend a book on Thermopylae **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258 "2007-03-02T01:43:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/1 "2007-03-02T01:43:09Z")
With the movie 300 coming out next week I wanted to read something more in depth about the battle that is the focus of the story. I have Miller’s graphic novel and he generously provides a bibliography but I’d like to get the opinion of some Doper’s. What book should I read to get the low down on the battle of Thermopylae? Are there any classic histories worth mentioning (and potentially available on Project Gutenburg)? ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/2 "2007-03-02T01:49:21Z")
I know you’re looking for non-fiction books (and I’m interested too, so I’ll keep an eye on this thread to see other replies), but if you’re looking for fiction involving the battle of Thermopylae, I would highly recommend _Gates of Fire_ by Steven Pressfield. [Amazon link](http://www.amazon.com/Gates-Fire-Novel-Battle-Thermopylae/dp/055338368X/sr=1-1/qid=1172800073/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2915516-3921618?ie=UTF8&s=books) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/3 "2007-03-02T02:30:25Z")
I’m currently about halfway through Pressfield’s book and very much enjoying it, although I should point out that the author is greatly enamored of the Spartans. It probably presents a more fair and balanced view than the movie will offer, but still, I’d explore any links you can find for other viewpoints, such as the helots’. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/4 "2007-03-02T03:34:43Z")
I third Gates of Fire. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/5 "2007-03-02T03:35:37Z")
Well, you could always read Herodotus. He’s the Greek who wrote a history of the wars between the Persians and the Greeks, with lots of fantastic digressions along the way. He’s actually one of my favourite authors of all time - a real pleasure to read, and it’s certainly the best source you’ll get. The two books listed as notable treatments of the Battle of Thermopylae in the Oxford Classical Dictionary (the best and most trustworthy reference book for stuff like this) are C. Hignett, Xerxes’ Invasion of Greece (1963) and J. F. Lazenby, The Defence of Greece (1993). I can’t vouch for either, not having read them, but I’ve just recently read another book by Lazenby, and I enjoyed it, although it was very militarily-focused. It also looks like Paul Cartledge has just come out with a new book in 2006 on Thermopylae too, called “Thermopylae : the battle that changed the world”. He’s certainly one of the foremost authorities on all matters Greek alive at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/6 "2007-03-02T04:54:38Z")
Gate of Fire. As everyone has noted. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/7 "2007-03-02T05:05:59Z")
Another for **Gates of Fire**. Much more accurate than **300**. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/8 "2007-03-02T05:28:15Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] Well, you could always read Herodotus. He’s the Greek who wrote a history of the wars between the Persians and the Greeks [/QUOTE] And his books are available for free, in Project Gutenberg: [Browse By Author: H | Project Gutenberg](http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/h#a828) ---
**Author:** ![VampyChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5daacb/32.png) [@VampyChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VampyChick)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/9 "2007-03-02T05:48:29Z")
Yet another vote for _Gates of Fire_, which was recommended to me by my Ancient Greek History professor. She said it was one of the most historically accurate novels about ancient Greece she’d found–although it does leave out the gay, which makes sense, as it’s not the concern of the book. _300_ is horrendously inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/10 "2007-03-02T06:07:55Z")
Herodotus is indeed available on Gutenberg, but that translation doesn’t look fun to read, to say the least. The translation on the [Internet Classics Archive](http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.html) seems marginally better, but my favourite (still copyrighted) translation is by [Aubrey de Selincourt](http://www.amazon.com/Histories-Penguin-Classics-Herodotus/dp/0140449086/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-1282908-3151027?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172815610&sr=8-1). ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/11 "2007-03-02T18:10:35Z")
Helen’s Eidolon doesn’t seem to want to tell you this, but this is her area of expertise. She is a Master’s student of Classics. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/12 "2007-03-02T18:20:02Z")
I found David Grene’s translation of Herodotus very readable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/13 "2007-03-02T19:24:08Z")
[QUOTE=VampyChick] Yet another vote for _Gates of Fire_, which was recommended to me by my Ancient Greek History professor. She said it was one of the most historically accurate novels about ancient Greece she’d found–although it does leave out the gay, which makes sense, as it’s not the concern of the book. [/QUOTE] That’s not quite so jarring as the scene where one of the Spartan citizens saves the life of a rebellious helot by claiming paternity of him – or his child, forget which. In either case, one of the _krypteia_ expresses skepticism that the citizen in question would be guilty of “infidelity” to his wife – in a time, place and culture where a husband **had** no acknowledged duty to be sexually faithful to his wife; the burden of fidelity was all on **her.** That was as true in Sparta as anywhere else in Greece, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/14 "2007-03-02T20:05:35Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That’s not quite so jarring as the scene where one of the Spartan citizens saves the life of a rebellious helot by claiming paternity of him – or his child, forget which. In either case, one of the _krypteia_ expresses skepticism that the citizen in question would be guilty of “infidelity” to his wife – in a time, place and culture where a husband **had** no acknowledged duty to be sexually faithful to his wife; the burden of fidelity was all on **her.** That was as true in Sparta as anywhere else in Greece, AFAIK. [/QUOTE] If I’m remembering right, it was Dienekes who claimed the paternity, and the thought that I had when the krypteia member said his bit about fidelity was more that Dienekes wouldn’t be unfaithful, not that a Peer wouldn’t be unfaithful. On a different note, here’s another vote for _Gates of Fire_. I particularly liked the way that the Spartans were treated as very serious, professional soldiers, not as some hyper-macho, bloodthirsty crazies, which seems to be what _300_ is aiming for, although I don’t really remember it as much from the graphic novel as I do from the tv ads. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/15 "2007-03-02T20:22:02Z")
There was a used copy of Selincourt’s translation of Herodotus for a penny on Amazon (not the same edition). I ordered that since Herodotus is a hole in my reading that needs filling. If anyone is interested there are a [couple of copies of that same edition](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140440348/encoding=UTF8&v=glance) left on Amazon to be had at a price where you’re essentially just paying the shipping. Since everyone loves Gates of Fire so much I’m adding it to my reading list, though at the moment I’m in the mood for something non-fiction. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/16 "2007-03-02T20:26:36Z")
[QUOTE=bump] If I’m remembering right, it was Dienekes who claimed the paternity, and the thought that I had when the krypteia member said his bit about fidelity was more that Dienekes wouldn’t be unfaithful, not that a Peer wouldn’t be unfaithful. [/quote] Perhaps, but culturally speaking, the one makes no more sense than the other. I believe some contemporary Greek writer said, “We use courtesans for pleasure, slaves for the daily health of our bodies, and wives to provide us with lawful children.” So it was. A consistently faithful husband would be some kinda freakin’ freak. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/17 "2007-03-02T22:37:30Z")
> [@](#): > > in a time, place and culture where a husband had no acknowledged duty to be sexually faithful to his wife; the burden of fidelity was all on her. That was as true in Sparta as anywhere else in Greece, AFAIK. That’s still true in many places, even today. A few years back, I worked on a Minnesota Legislative Committee reviewing state criminal laws. I was surprised to discover that in Minnesota, _adultery_ is strictly a crime for wives, husbands having sex with someone they are not married to is **not** adultery. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/18 "2007-03-03T03:05:36Z")
[QUOTE=bump] I particularly liked the way that the Spartans were treated as very serious, professional soldiers, not as some hyper-macho, bloodthirsty crazies, which seems to be what _300_ is aiming for, although I don’t really remember it as much from the graphic novel as I do from the tv ads. [/QUOTE] I remember in particular a scene describing a battle the Spartans had – not the stand at Thermopylae, against Thebans I think – and the onlooker noted how the they formed up their phalanx and when they were ready to go, their pikes snapped as one to a perfectly straight, unwavering line, turning the phalanx into a killing machine. Their opponents’ on the other hand, dipped and shook as the realization of what was to befall them sunk in. Several broke and ran before first contact. I devoured the book in two days. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/19 "2007-03-03T03:19:03Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That’s not quite so jarring as the scene where [spoiler] [/QUOTE] I’m not going to write a multi-paragraph spoiler-boxed analysis of how crucial this scene is, how it illuminates a number of aspects of the Spartans’ culture and beliefs, the position of women, the demands of honor, etc., etc. I’ll just say, having read that bit yesterday, that in context it is entirely believable and upon it hinges some major plot developments. It’s driving me crazy, not being free to sit down with this book and devour it without interruption! **DesertDog** , you are so right, that scene with the pikes snapping into position was stunning, it really illustrated why the Spartans were such feared warriors. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/20 "2007-03-03T14:28:52Z")
Yep, _Gates of Fire_, especially the audio version, one of the prolific Grover Gardner’s best performances. Pressfield’s choice of a helot archer as the narrator was just perfect, as it allowed a full view of Spartan society from the inside. George Clooney had been cast as Leonidas, but the project was shelved. Too many other swords-and-sandals flix in the pipeline, apparently. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258.md?page=2)