# Recommend a book on Thermopylae **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258 "2007-03-02T01:43:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/21 "2007-03-03T15:29:43Z")
I have to admit, after all of the glowing recommendations I’m almost curious to read Gates of Fire myself… although some of the stuff quoted/referred to here makes me suspicious that it’s not as accurate as it could be. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/22 "2007-03-03T15:41:18Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] I have to admit, after all of the glowing recommendations I’m almost curious to read Gates of Fire myself… although some of the stuff quoted/referred to here makes me suspicious that it’s not as accurate as it could be. [/QUOTE] Well, dammit, hurry up then, woman, so you can come back here and tell us your take before this thread drops into oblivion! 😃 Perhaps it does take some liberties with historical truth, but by reading it I’m coming to see the Spartans as real people, not the cardboard cutouts my history education made of them. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/23 "2007-03-03T15:47:39Z")
Ha! Unfortunately, I’m a bit busy at the moment reading about the Spartans (no, really!) to pick up a new fiction book. I may aim for March break, though! ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/24 "2007-03-03T17:19:03Z")
Helen’s Eidolon, looking at your location, I wonder if you have any good french translations of Herodotus to recommend. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/25 "2007-03-03T17:27:01Z")
Hm. I haven’t read any editions of him in French, so I can’t speak from personal experience. I found a new edition of him from Belles Lettres, who usually produce good translations, that came out in 2002. However, it’s Greek on one side of the page and French on the other, so if you can’t read Greek, it’s half-useless. If you’re interested, I can check out what else my library has and give you a personal opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/26 "2007-03-03T17:35:01Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] Hm. I haven’t read any editions of him in French, so I can’t speak from personal experience. I found a new edition of him from Belles Lettres, who usually produce good translations, that came out in 2002. However, it’s Greek on one side of the page and French on the other, so if you can’t read Greek, it’s half-useless. If you’re interested, I can check out what else my library has and give you a personal opinion. [/QUOTE] Actually, the Belles Lettres sounds very good, I had 3 years of Ancient Greek, and I could pretend to myself that I still know something. In english I’ve been buying Loeb Classical Library editions to have the latin along the translation. Is this what you mean? [(amazon link)](http://www.amazon.ca/Histoires-t-I-liv/dp/2251001417/ref=sr_1_2/702-0337199-7428074) A tad expensive for a paperback. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/27 "2007-03-03T17:43:27Z")
Huh, it is - and each book of Herodotus is published in a different book in that series, so there’s nine total. Maybe not the best investment. The next most recent translation my library has (and it doesn’t have the best French collection, being in PA) is Stéphane Gsell’s, from 1971. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/28 "2007-03-03T17:44:16Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] I have to admit, after all of the glowing recommendations I’m almost curious to read Gates of Fire myself… although some of the stuff quoted/referred to here makes me suspicious that it’s not as accurate as it could be. [/QUOTE] In terms of historical fiction, Pressfield is about as accurate a writer as I’ve found on the ancient Greeks. He’s also written novels on the Peloponnesian Wars and one on Alexander (His best known novel is probably _The Legend of Bagger Vance_, though). His descriptions of actual warfare are where he’s the most authentic. The weapons, the armor, the hierarchy of command, the procedures, the fighting itself and the descriptions of the devolpments of real, historical battles are all right on the money. He also does a good job of working in aspects of religion and how they influnced military culture. If he has a flaw it’s that he seems a little squeamish about teh gay, but when his portrayal of the actual fighting at Thermopylae is very accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/29 "2007-03-03T17:48:41Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] If he has a flaw it’s that he seems a little squeamish about teh gay, but when his portrayal of the actual fighting at Thermopylae is very accurate. [/QUOTE] Since one of my interests is ancient sexuality, this might bug me a fair bit. Especially since, in Sparta, a man could be fined for not having an _eromenos_. We will see. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/30 "2007-03-03T18:18:54Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Perhaps it does take some liberties with historical truth, but by reading it I’m coming to see the Spartans as real people, not the cardboard cutouts my history education made of them. [/QUOTE] But in real life, they were cardboard cutouts. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/31 "2007-03-03T23:23:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But in real life, they were cardboard cutouts. [/QUOTE] Ha! Cardboard hadn’t been invented yet, mister! Any cutouts would be made from either parchment or papyrus. Thought you could fool me, did you? :mad: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/32 "2007-03-04T01:12:37Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Ha! Cardboard hadn’t been invented yet, mister! Any cutouts would be made from either parchment or papyrus. Thought you could fool me, did you? :mad: [/QUOTE] 😃 Nevertheless, IRL, the Spartans were cardboard cutouts, or not much more. Practically every other polity in Hellas in the relevant period produced art, music, philosophy, theater . . . all the things for which we **remember** Ancient Greece. The Spartans were known for exactly one accomplishment along those lines: Pithy or “Laconic” epigrams. (E.g., General Pausanius, on seeing the luxurious captured tent of a Persian general: “You see what fools these were, who live like this, yet came here to rob us of our poverty!”) Otherwise, they were unimaginative and brain-dead. Their culture and political system made them so. Males of the citizen class lived under military discipline **from childhood.** That is not an environment conducive to the flowering of individual personalities. I would strongly recommend **Just Some Guy** read some historical fiction that treats the Spartans from a non-Spartan POV – e.g., _The Last of the Wine,_ by Mary Renault. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/33 "2007-03-04T03:25:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I would strongly recommend **Just Some Guy** read some historical fiction that treats the Spartans from a non-Spartan POV – e.g., _The Last of the Wine,_ by Mary Renault. [/QUOTE] An excellent recommendation – although Renault tends to fall in love with her characters and see the best in the Greece she writes about. But she does incorporate Ancient Greek homosexuality into her books as a normal part of the culture. I’d recommend, in fact, all of her books set in that milieu. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/34 "2007-03-04T08:20:34Z")
The “original” movie- “The 300 Spartans” is not bad at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/35 "2007-03-04T23:50:44Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] Especially since, in Sparta, a man could be fined for not having an _eromenos_. [/QUOTE] Well, that wasn’t just about pleasure. [Greek pederasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_pederasty) was a functional social institution – the _erastes_ (adult lover) was expected to mentor and educate the _eromenos_ (teenage lover), set a good example for him on the battlefield, and so on. (Homosexuality between adults was considered ridiculous.) ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/36 "2007-03-05T02:39:26Z")
Heh, I know. I gave a lecture on the topic of Greek homoeroticism last year 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/37 "2007-03-05T03:26:36Z")
I just read _Gates of Fire_ last year, and was momentarily pumped when I heard about the “300” movie. Then I saw the trailer. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/38 "2007-03-05T03:38:10Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] I just read _Gates of Fire_ last year, and was momentarily pumped when I heard about the “300” movie. Then I saw the trailer. [/QUOTE] I’m still reading the book, and after seeing the movie trailers online, there’s no way in Hades I’d go see it. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258/39 "2007-03-05T03:58:24Z")
Yet another vote for _Gates of Fire_. Even if it weren’t historically accurate, it’s a crackin’ good story. (Just saw a tv ad for _300_. Not even sure if I’ll go see it. The historical facts are so amazing, it really doesn’t need to be tarted up with comic-book fantasy.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-a-book-on-thermopylae/394258.md?page=1)