# Recommend me some hard science fiction **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646 "2010-11-23T07:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/41 "2010-11-24T19:37:14Z")
I quite enjoyed \*Great Sky River \*by Greg Benford, who is an astrophysicist at UC Irvine. It’s actually a later novel from his \*Galactic Center Saga \*series, but is a solid novel as a stand-alone piece. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/42 "2010-11-24T20:05:44Z")
**Mission of Gravity** by Hal Clement. The one true classic of the genre, by the person who invented hard SF.\* All modern hard SF comes from this book – and it still holds up very well. Even the science is pretty good – the numbers aren’t quite right (though Hal corrected them), but it took computers to figure that out, and Hal was using a slide rule. **Tau Zero** by Poul Anderson is the second choice. The characters are better than in **Mission**. In both cases, the story carries you through the science, and Clement is especially good in explaining what’s going on. \*One could also credit Jules Verne, but while Verne was a dead end, Clement was the author who later writers were imitating. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/43 "2010-11-24T20:29:08Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > You know, I wanted to read up on Larry Niven – I’m finding he’s a good idea guy, but his writing is pretty boring, rambling, just generally bad. The characters tend to be really generic to the point where I really couldn’t make any sense of the _plot_ “The Integral Trees” although the _setting_ was interesting. Like many authors who tend to ramble, his best work is in short stories. he also co-authors with a lot of B-grade and worse co-authors, so its hard to tell where his badness ends and theirs starts. This is basically what I think about _Ringworld_. The Ringworld itself, the Kzinti, the Puppeteers, and the whole concept of genetic luck are great, but his characters are weak. However, when he’s with Pournelle he’s pretty good. > [@Lightray](#): > > I’m thinking the “definitive work” shouldn’t feature renegade soldiers who all happen to be cannibals – and black. Niven and/or Pournelle may have been okay once upon a time, but definitely went off their rockers. I’d avoid. Uh, what? Weren’t the cannibals radically non-racist? I remember them being pointedly of all races, and violent against those who displayed racism. Regardless, it’s hard to talk about the “impact” genre without discussing _Lucifer’s Hammer_, which is why I held it up as being definitive of the genre, the same way that it’s hard to talk about a “space marines” book without comparing it to _Starship Troopers_. There may be better books in that sub-genre, but that was the one that set out what the sub-genre would be. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/44 "2010-11-27T17:47:28Z")
Thanks for all the recommendation. I found a copy of John Varley’s compilation of short stories (The John Varley reader, I think) and was totally absorbed by it. Very good premise and extrapolation of what our culture would be like, and lots of harrowing incidents, just that I sometimes couldn’t figure out what is going on (Except for _Pusher_. I couldn’t figure out what’s was wrong with the girl who never grew old or the one with the interactive-press-enter suicide note one either). I couldn’t find some of the recommendations, particularly a _Ring of Swords_, at my local library. I intend to go down the list as I complete the books (I guess I have enough to fill me for weeks, thanks!). Just another query: does hard science-fiction stories include aliens and space-faring tales? I’m also hoping for something with space battles, and for those to be as ‘realistic’ as possible, if we could ever have a war in space. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/45 "2010-11-27T18:10:54Z")
> [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](#): > > Let me try to explain: I want a good story with plot development and interesting characters set in a ‘hard’ science fiction setting, where there are good justifications for FTL, weapon systems and whenever science is used as a plot element. I am, however, not interested in pages after pages on explaining on how a technology work, or why it works. I’m not looking for novels where the science takes up the bulk, like weapon technology in some Tom Clancy’s books or fashion in the Wheel of Time 😉 Okay. David Brin’s _Uplift_ books, starting with Startide Rising. Don’t bother with Sundiver, the first one. It’s irrelevant to the McGuffin that drives the rest and isn’t very good anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/46 "2010-11-27T19:13:53Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Oh yeah, that’s a good 'un. Charles Stross has his moments too. Try “Singularity Sky.” I got the first 3 books in this “series” from the library the other day, based on this recommendation, and after slogging thru the first 50 pages of “Singularity Sky”, I have to admit I won’t be reading anymore. His writing style is herky-jerky, the characters aren’t at all memorable, the plot is obscure to the point of not existing, and there is a noticeable lack of science in the book. Just using the words “causal” and “nanotechnology” don’t make a book “hard” SF. What I’ve read so far is reminiscent of the worst “speculative fiction” from the late 1960s and 1970s. Thanks for the recommendation tho. I do like trying new stuff. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/47 "2010-11-27T19:51:54Z")
One of my all-time faves not mentioned above would James White’s Sector General series, about a multi-species, multi-environment hospital. Start with the short-story collection **Hospital Station** and go from there. There’s also the novels **Star Surgeon,** **Major Operation** and **Ambulance Ship,** plus others. The stories have some of the most well-realized view of aliens (most non-humanoid) and interspecies medical technology and protocols I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/48 "2010-11-27T20:21:09Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > For sci fi, I also recently read > > the Engines of God by Jack McDevitt > > which I enjoyed. I read a bunch of McDevitt’s books. I liked the science, and liked a lot of the characters (especially Hutch), but I hated the way he constantly had them doing asinine things: taking hugely stupid risks at exactly the wrong time, over and over and over again. Little things like a character in a space ship, thousands of light years from help, deciding to put on a suit and go outside to try and grab a black hole with their gloved hands in order to bring it back inside the ship but oh no! disaster ensues!\* Or to go exploring in an alien spacecraft, despite a nearly depleted oxygen supply and already being lost, and the possibility that either the ship itself is hostile to their presence, or the aliens might not be dead or gone and also might be hostile.\* It got tiring after the 2nd book, but I read a couple more thinking that _surely_ McDevitt wouldn’t use the same retarded plot device again. But he does. Over and over and over. \*I made these up, because I don’t want to re-read any of his book to come up with specific examples. But it’s not far off from what happens in _Chindi_ or _Omega_; can’t remember which. ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/49 "2010-11-27T20:34:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I read a bunch of McDevitt’s books. I liked the science, and liked a lot of the characters (especially Hutch), but I hated the way he constantly had them doing asinine things: taking hugely stupid risks at exactly the wrong time, over and over and over again. Little things like a character in a space ship, thousands of light years from help, deciding to put on a suit and go outside to try and grab a black hole with their gloved hands in order to bring it back inside the ship but oh no! disaster ensues!\* > > Or to go exploring in an alien spacecraft, despite a nearly depleted oxygen supply and already being lost, and the possibility that either the ship itself is hostile to their presence, or the aliens might not be dead or gone and also might be hostile.\* > > It got tiring after the 2nd book, but I read a couple more thinking that _surely_ McDevitt wouldn’t use the same retarded plot device again. But he does. Over and over and over. > > \*I made these up, because I don’t want to re-read any of his book to come up with specific examples. But it’s not far off from what happens in _Chindi_ or _Omega_; can’t remember which. Thanks for this feedback. I did enjoy Engines of God, but I haven’t yet picked up the anymore books in the series. I think I might checkout Hyperion after I finish Side Jobs instead. Lots of good suggestions here. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/50 "2010-11-27T21:51:11Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > One of my all-time faves not mentioned above would James White’s Sector General series, about a multi-species, multi-environment hospital. Start with the short-story collection **Hospital Station** and go from there. There’s also the novels **Star Surgeon,** **Major Operation** and **Ambulance Ship,** plus others. The stories have some of the most well-realized view of aliens (most non-humanoid) and interspecies medical technology and protocols I’ve ever read. And all of the stories have been re-released in trade-sized omnibus editions, so you won’t miss any. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/51 "2010-11-27T23:56:04Z")
> [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](#): > > Thanks for all the recommendation. > I intend to go down the list as I complete the books (I guess I have enough to fill me for weeks, thanks!). > > Just another query: does hard science-fiction stories include aliens and space-faring tales? I’m also hoping for something with space battles, and for those to be as ‘realistic’ as possible, if we could ever have a war in space. For space battles, try Stephen Baxter. Exultant includes a battle where one must consider the effects of time travel. I like him because his future history goes further into the future than most, and because he has the nerve to follow where the physics leads. He also has several novels where interplanetary flights are done with modern equipment. One person not mentioned is [John Stith](http://www.neverend.com), whose **Redshift Rendezvous** is set on a starship where relativistic effects are noticeable. And I second the nominations of Clement and Clarke. Niven’s early work was great, but I’ve had trouble staying interested in the later stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/52 "2010-11-28T12:00:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Just another query: does hard science-fiction stories include aliens and space-faring tales? I’m also hoping for something with space battles, and for those to be as ‘realistic’ as possible, if we could ever have a war in space. It can include such things, but it’s not required. In fact, some of the earliest hard SF is by E. E. “Doc” Smith, who wrote the Lensman and Skylark series. Many consider him to be the first to write space opera. I THINK that his works do include aliens, but it’s been a long, long time since I’ve read them. The science will be outdated. On the other hand, I’m pretty sure that you can get most or all of the books from Gutenberg (they’re that old). Read Vernor Vinge. Read Vernor Vinge. Read Vernor Vinge. READ VERNOR VINGE! ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/53 "2010-11-28T14:24:37Z")
> [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](#): > > Thanks for all the recommendation. > > I found a copy of John Varley’s compilation of short stories (The John Varley reader, I think) and was totally absorbed by it. Very good premise and extrapolation of what our culture would be like, and lots of harrowing incidents, just that I sometimes couldn’t figure out what is going on (Except for _Pusher_. I couldn’t figure out what’s was wrong with the girl who never grew old or the one with the interactive-press-enter suicide note one either). I couldn’t find some of the recommendations, particularly a _Ring of Swords_, at my local library. I’m aware of that compilation-- it’s a good 'un. If you liked his stories set in Luna after Earth has been conquered by aliens then try his _Steel Beach_ and _The Golden Globe_. They’re in the same continuity. > [@](#): > > Just another query: does hard science-fiction stories include aliens and space-faring tales? I’m also hoping for something with space battles, and for those to be as ‘realistic’ as possible, if we could ever have a war in space. It absolutely can. Brin’s _Startide Rising_ is a good recommendation, I’d also try Niven and Pournelle’s _A Mote In God’s Eye_. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/54 "2010-11-29T00:48:51Z")
> [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](#): > > Just another query: does hard science-fiction stories include aliens and space-faring tales? I’m also hoping for something with space battles, and for those to be as ‘realistic’ as possible, if we could ever have a war in space. Also try CJ Cherryh’s _Heavy Time_ and _Hellburner_ (I think they were released in an omnibus, too). Space battles much closer to “hard science” than to the pewpew lasers of pulp science like Star Wars. Basically, lots of math and computer projections trying to estimate where you and your enemies and random system debris are, frantic action, followed by waiting for the sensor data to catch up with the lightspeed delay to learn if you’re going to be dead, or not. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/55 "2010-11-29T06:56:07Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Also try CJ Cherryh’s _Heavy Time_ and _Hellburner_ (I think they were released in an omnibus, too). Space battles much closer to “hard science” than to the pewpew lasers of pulp science like Star Wars. > > Basically, lots of math and computer projections trying to estimate where you and your enemies and random system debris are, frantic action, followed by waiting for the sensor data to catch up with the lightspeed delay to learn if you’re going to be dead, or not. That sounds exactly like what I am looking for 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/56 "2010-12-03T21:55:53Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Gee whiz, you set me straight! I didn’t realize that putting out “hard” SF was just a license to be crappy! The OP asked for books with “good character and description” so why, other than pure cruelty, would you direct him otherwise? Unless your disdain for the genre is such that you believe that SF is definitionaly of low quality? How tragic for you, because it isn’t true at all. I think you misunderstand me; what I was trying to say is that there are many more hard sci-fi writers who aren’t great _writers_ but who have great ideas. I’m ok with that- it’s more about the idea and the exploration of that idea, than character development and dialogue. For example, I don’t really care if Halrloprillalar (or however it’s spelled) isn’t a particularly developed character in Ringworld- it’s not really important for the story. I just have a certain very mild annoyance with people who will take a great book and shit on it because they can’t get past the writer’s style or word choice, or dialogue. It always struck me as the English major’s way of reading sci-fi, and misses the point I think. ---
**Author:** ![Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ee7513/32.png) [@Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kim_o_the_Concrete_Jungle)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/57 "2010-12-03T22:13:54Z")
Well, I just finished reading the SF Masterworks edition of _The Forever War_ by Joe Haldeman. (This is the edition with the missing chapters restored.) It’s a pretty timely book. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/58 "2010-12-03T22:42:04Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > It can include such things, but it’s not required. In fact, some of the earliest hard SF is by E. E. “Doc” Smith, who wrote the Lensman and Skylark series. Many consider him to be the first to write space opera. I THINK that his works do include aliens, but it’s been a long, long time since I’ve read them. The science will be outdated. On the other hand, I’m pretty sure that you can get most or all of the books from Gutenberg (they’re that old). Plenty of aliens. In Skylark they more or less visit aliens, but there are alien Lensmen - plus the Arisians and Eddorians, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646/59 "2010-12-04T00:36:44Z")
[Karl Schroeder](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Schroeder) - [Ventus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventus), [Permanence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanence_(novel)) or [Lady of Mazes](http://www.kschroeder.com/my-books/lady-of-mazes) are great places to start. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-me-some-hard-science-fiction/561646.md?page=2)