# Recommend to me a grand strategy wargame (non RTS) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 25, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980 "2011-03-25T16:05:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/21 "2011-03-28T23:55:35Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > [Gary Grigsby’s World at War](http://www.matrixgames.com/games/WorldAtWar/main.asp) is pretty good, theres a slight learning curve as any strategy game with depth will have. Similar to Axis & Allies but far deeper. You really have to be the Axis though otherwise the AI doesn’t stand a chance. I already own this game too. It’s OK, but not that great in my opinion, but that’s mostly because I tend to like detailed games. The advantage, obviously, is that it doesn’t take too long to play a game (as opposed to playing HoI, covering also WWII, for instance). > [@](#): > > [Crown of Glory: Europe in the Age of Napoleon](http://www.matrixgames.com/products/306/details/Crown.of.Glory:.Europe.in.the.Age.of.Napoleon) is supposed to be really good. I purchased it, but haven’t really gotten into it as I’ve had other things on the docket lately. Bought it yesterday and begun playing it. It looked very much like the kind of game I wanted about the Napoleonic period. Although I didn’t fell in love with it, at least yet, (I can’t pinpoint exactly why), it seems good. I bought the second “Emperor’s edition” version, where they added some features, in particular regarding naval battles. I wrote something that looked like a review by someone who didn’t read the rules and doesn’t have a clue about what he’s doing. But I deleted it and am just going to say : the game is complex with many aspects (detailed battles, improvements of units or at the national level probably allowing to customize your army a lot, trade, diplomacy, economy, influencing minor countries, generals, a rather light supply system). Battles are quite long, so playing a full campaign with a major power is certainly going to take a very long time. When I’ll have actually read all the rules, understood all the concepts, and played a full game, I’ll know what to think of the game. There’s no way at this point I could guess if it’s a great game or a disappointment. I think it will mostly depends on the AI. > [@](#): > > There’s always the classic [Panzer General II](http://www.gog.com/en/catalogue) which is a steal at $10. Castles II on that list is pretty good too, not as deep as you’re looking for probably but a good time. I never played “Panzer general” itself, but I played another game of the serie : “People’s general” (about an hypothetical conflict between China and basically the rest of the world). I liked the fact there was a campaign mode, some customization, and bringing experienced units from a scenario to another, found it rather pleasant overall and had fun playing it, but I have some reservations : -It’s not a grand strategy game. It’s rather a tactical game where the fight, including only a limited number of units, is supposed to represent a large scale battle. You don’t make any strategic decision, just go from one scenario to another. -As a result, the units depicted aren’t realistic. You have artillery, tanks, armored infantry,etc… but they are very generic and you have no way to guess at what scale you’re playing. Your units could be divisions or companies. Impossible to tell. -The issue you face as a player is generally "going from A to B quickly enough so that you won’t lose because you reached the end of the scenario, with enough units in good shape to win. -The strategy of your computer opponent is almost always : I have a ton of hidden anti-air weapons, artillery and whatever else will prevent you from even approaching the objective. That is, it uses brute force to provide a challenge. After X number of battles, it becomes a bit repetitive and frustrating to assault hedgehogs. I can’t tell it’s a bad game, it’s still fun. But definitely not a great game for buffs. I think it’s probably a good game for casual players. Of course, I’m assuming here that Panzer General is similar. > [@](#): > > Korsun Pocket is supposed to be fantastic, but thats another one I still haven’t had time to learn. I bookmarked it for future reference, but I don’t feel like playing a specific operation. I want a full war from beginning to end 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/22 "2011-03-28T23:58:50Z")
FYI, there’s an open source version of Panzer General 2 available with a ton of mods included. [Open General](http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/opengeneral/index.php?title=Main_Page) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/23 "2011-03-29T00:08:24Z")
I’m not finished with the thread yet (I’ll investigate about the other games proposed later), but I think it’s going to cost me quite a lot of money and keep me busy for a long time. I already bought : -Supreme Leader 2020 (_this_ beast has a really steep learning curve, even by my long-time player standards :eek: . Absolutely can’t tell if it’s any good. -The emperor edition of “Crown of Glory” -The complete edition of “King Arthur : the role playing wargame” (currently downloading it. The general concept seems interesting and original.) I’ll probably buy “Shogun 2” if I think it can run properly on my computer. If not, I’ll probably play the first edition again one of these days. I liked it, didn’t play it in a long time (probably a couple years) and the current discussions about it renewed my interest. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/24 "2011-03-29T00:15:18Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > -Supreme Leader 2020 I meant Supreme\*\* Ruler \*\*2020 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/25 "2011-03-29T00:54:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I looked at it, but despite seeming interesting, it rather looks like a tactical level game (with individual soldiers) It’s based on [the 43rd Virginia Calvary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43rd_Battalion_Virginia_Cavalry) so the campaign map is limited to their actions. Individual battles are at squad level but the squads are raised through the nearby villages and your soldiers earn promotions during the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/26 "2011-03-29T15:26:59Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > I’m in about the same position as the OP — considering getting HOI 3, but looking at other options. > > I’ve been following the SA Let’s Play [War In the Pacific](http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3238049), which is unfolding in “real time” - one turn a day. It’s been going on for over a year now. It’s making me want to go for something like that, where I could play about 15-30 min a day and feel like I’m not lost each time I head back in. Possibly not quite as lengthy a game, but I don’t mind a broad scope. It looks like they are playing “War in the Pacific” or the newer (and bigger) “War in the Pacific, Admiral’s Edition” from Matrix Games. Monster games. The economy is the toughest thing to figure out and control. Leaving things (like running Japan’s economy, or assembling and routing supply convoys) on “computer assistant” tends to dork them up, especially in the vanilla edition. Speaking about the economy, there the Japanese player can somewhat manage their builds, but the Allied player doesn’t get the same abilities and fun. Even so, the Japanese player cannot start “new” capital ships, but elect to devote resources to ones already on the schedule (like the Shinano). This is not usually an issue, as there are tons of stuff on the ship building schedule that most aren’t going to be built anyway. However, Japan (if properly planned) can build tons more aircraft than they actually did during the war. Never-the-less, it’s one of the classic turn based strategy games in my hard drive. Don’t play it as much as I used to. Planning and moving dozens, if not not hundreds, of individual units per turn can take a while. (The first turn of the game is brutal, even for the Allies. 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/27 "2011-03-29T17:12:59Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Bought it yesterday and begun playing it. It looked very much like the kind of game I wanted about the Napoleonic period. Although I didn’t fell in love with it, at least yet, (I can’t pinpoint exactly why), it seems good. I bought the second “Emperor’s edition” version, where they added some features, in particular regarding naval battles. Yeah, I only found out about that version after I bought the ‘sans naval battle’ one. However, the reviews for the Naval battles I read calls them ‘uninspired’. Let me know if it’s worthwhile getting the deluxe edition. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/28 "2011-03-30T23:00:25Z")
[Steel Panthers](http://www.matrixgames.com/products/297/details/Steel.Panthers:.World.at.War.-.Generals.Edition) Originally just tactical scenarios, looks like this package has combined them and your success or failure in one battle affects your assets and decisions later. I might pick this one up. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/29 "2011-04-07T14:49:14Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > [Steel Panthers](http://www.matrixgames.com/products/297/details/Steel.Panthers:.World.at.War.-.Generals.Edition) Originally just tactical scenarios, looks like this package has combined them and your success or failure in one battle affects your assets and decisions later. I might pick this one up. Absolutlely. Playing the scenarios on this made me really understand what a “Pyhrric Victory” is all about. That being said, it’s not quite grand strategy, in that there isn’t much beyond picking your units and using them on the field. One of the things I LOVED About Hearts of Iron was directing research, and thus coming out with superior fighters, or armor, or what-have-you. I have HoI 3, but it’s just so badly broken I haven’t been able to get into it in any sort of real detail. Related to that was the ability to create from whole cloth your own ships in Galactic Civilizations 2. I liked that. I could make a truly devestating ship, but it would cost me a small fortune. I usually ended up going the Star Wars route… a small number of capital ships, with a ludicrous amount of small fighters that would often get off one or two shots before being vaporized. Good times! ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/30 "2011-04-14T19:07:53Z")
I thought I’d pop back into this thread with an update on what I did. Crown of Glory (EE) does indeed look interesting, but the battle sequence seems a bit too breezy for me - you don’t even get to choose which unit is moving, it seems. The interface seems like it could be better, as well. I ended up giving the Total War series another shot, and I’m actually liking Empire. (Shogun is too much for my old computer, and I don’t think I’d like the battle style anyway. Plus I picked up the double pack with Napoleon, which I haven’t tried yet). The variety an technological change in the units is balanced enough to be interesting, and the strategic map is interesting without bogging you down. It’s not without its flaws, but most of those are in the strategic side and I haven’t run into anything terrible yet. I might like a nicer cultural model, but I wasn’t expecting EU anyway. I hear the “Darth Mod” is supposed to make it even more interesting - has anyone tried that? Also, since there have been a few references to more tactical games with larger campaigns like Panzer General, I’ll make another recommendation. [Battle for Wesnoth](http://www.wesnoth.org/). It has a fantasy setting, which really means access to a wider variety of units. That’s probably it’s biggest strength, but I found that it can be crucial to build up some quality units for the tough battles. Another big plus is that it’s free, but the campaigns are pretty high quality. ---
**Author:** ![Chimpsmack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Chimpsmack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimpsmack)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/31 "2011-04-16T23:07:38Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > I hear the “Darth Mod” is supposed to make it even more interesting - has anyone tried that? Yes, I’ve run DarthMod. It’s a significant upgrade to the game. Taking a look at the creator’s poll over on TWCenter, over 80% of 132 respondents credit the mod with providing better AI in both campaign and strategic phases. It also gets high marks for improving physics for cannon, muskets and cavalry, and morale and economic changes, among other things. Small sample size, so take it for what it’s worth, but IME any of the TW games are significantly improved by adding either DarthMod or Realism. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/32 "2011-04-18T13:57:37Z")
Anybody remember Empire? Pretty nifty turn-based strategy game… ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980/33 "2011-04-18T15:52:03Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > By the way, I also knows “Master of Orion 2”. Never tried Master of Orion 3 because according to posters here, it seems to have been a dissapointment. It’s not really a disappointment, more of a “WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ?!”. Had it not used the name MoO and the expectations that came with it, it could conceivable have had higher reviews. Not much higher, but higher. Have you tried _Sword Of The Stars_ yet ? Interesting little game, with a solid multiplayer aspect to boot if that’s your thing. Sort of like a mix between _Master of Orion_ and the _Total War_ series: a stripped down space 4X game with pausable real time space battles when your armadas stumble upon enemy fleets. Or space bugs. Screw space bugs, screw them with a giant laser dildo. As a bonus, the tech tree is a) different depending on the race, each race is in fact very distinct in what it can or can’t do and b) randomized on a per-game basis. You will always have access to a handful of core technologies, but the techs that branch off from them may or may not appear this time around (and you don’t know if they will in advance). The chance of each tech appearing is also based on the race (for example, the Liir and Morrigi both have very high chances to get the good laser and shield techs, but armour techs are iffy at best). RAGE along with us when you get neither Point Defense nor Emitters ! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recommend-to-me-a-grand-strategy-wargame-non-rts/575980.md?page=1)