# Recreational origies in ancient times. Did women participate consensually in historical orgies? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 8, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557 "2015-03-08T22:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/1 "2015-03-08T22:49:44Z")
In modern group sex men and women are represented to participate as more or less equal volitional partners. In older times across various cultures (Chinese, Japanese Roman etc) where orgies happened did both men and women of power participate in orgies or was it strictly men and female slaves and/or prostitutes. Specifically were the male and female head of households allowed to indulge or just the men? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/2 "2015-03-08T23:16:18Z")
Ancient civilizations did not have our notions of “consent”. In many times and places the notion that a woman could have a basis to say “no” to her husband’s (or male owner’s) demand for sex was inconceivable - it just didn’t enter into anyone’s world view. Likewise, men were entitled to additional women under many circumstances and the approval or not of the wife(s) was irrelevant. For concubines, slaves, and the like - do you ask a fork if it consents to be used with dinner? That doesn’t mean it was all a nightmare - quite a few of the women probably participated with enjoyment. They just weren’t asked, they were told to show up at the party and that was that. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/3 "2015-03-08T23:38:22Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In older times across various cultures (Chinese, Japanese Roman etc) Were orgies a thing in old-timey China and Japan? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/4 "2015-03-09T00:06:02Z")
Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny all wrote of Messalina (the wife of the emperor Claudius) and her scandalous behavior, which was said to include competitions with other woman over who could have sex with the most men in 24 hours, and participation in orgies. This was _not_ done at the behest of her husband, who ultimately had her executed for her many infidelities. Or so I remember. It’s been a while (like decades) since I read any of the above-mentioned writers. So, to answer the OP’s question, women may indeed have been allowed to participate in all kinds of things, but it was most definitely not acceptable for the emperor’s wife to do so. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/5 "2015-03-09T00:28:36Z")
Bear in mind, the tales of Roman debauchery were usually written long after the alleged orgiasts were dead, generally when Rome was ruled by the descendants of their enemies. From the wiki on [Messalina](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messalina) > [@](#): > > The historians who relay these stories, principally Tacitus and Suetonius, wrote some 70 years after the events, in an environment hostile to the imperial line to which Messalina belonged. Suetonius’ history is largely scandal-mongering. Tacitus claims to be transmitting ‘what was heard and written by my elders’, without naming sources other than the memoirs of Agrippina the Younger, who had arranged to displace Messalina’s children in the imperial succession and was therefore particularly interested in blackening her predecessor’s name.[4] It has been argued that what passes for history is largely a result of the political sanctions that followed her death.[5] > > Accusations of sexual excess were a tried and tested smear tactic and the result of ‘politically motivated hostility’.[6] ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/6 "2015-03-09T00:34:31Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Were orgies a thing in old-timey China and Japan? Couldn’t say, but I have gained the impression that more recent Japanese & Chinese are not as averse as Confucius to loud noisy parties with heavy drinking, smoking and vigorous discussion. Throw in a few concubines and it could turn into an orgy. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/7 "2015-03-09T01:53:41Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Ancient civilizations did not have our notions of “consent”. In many times and places the notion that a woman could have a basis to say “no” to her husband’s (or male owner’s) demand for sex was inconceivable - The wives shutting their husbands off if they didn’t quit their warring ways was the plot of some famous ancient play, so the idea was at least conceivable. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/8 "2015-03-09T02:09:34Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > The wives shutting their husbands off if they didn’t quit their warring ways was the plot of some famous ancient play, so the idea was at least conceivable. You’re referring to _Lysistrata_ by Aristophanes. This is a comedy and the premise isn’t supposed to be particularly realistic, but there’s a scene where one of the women asks what they should do if their husbands don’t take no for an answer. Lysistrata says they should just lie there limply, and that this will still help their cause because men don’t really enjoy sex if the woman isn’t participating. So it seems as though it was accepted by Greek audiences that a man had every right to force himself upon his wife but also that most men preferred not to do this. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/9 "2015-03-09T05:32:52Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/10 "2015-03-09T07:32:55Z")
We tend to let ourselves imagine that things at a sufficient distance (cultural, temporal and geographic) are or were very different. But actually people are people. I doubt the women back then were any more ready to participate in orgies than now, and group sex is a very minority sport now. And back then there were the added detriments of no reliable birth control, and more venereal diseases that were a death sentence. I don’t imagine powerful men back then were any more keen on having their SO give birth to another man’s child than they would be now. The more so when the product of adultery might become the ruler. I really doubt that too many female head of households were participating in orgies. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/11 "2015-03-09T08:41:52Z")
If you look at human biology - killer sperm, multiple female orgasms, etc, you have to conclude that group sex is the state of nature and monogamy is a patriarchal tool to control women. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/12 "2015-03-09T09:20:42Z")
Ahhh, the good “old state of nature” gambit. > [@Lewis Carroll](#): > > “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ When you throw around the word “nature” as the basis for an argument be careful where it leads you. For example, the predominance of patriarchal human societies by your reasoning suggests that the control of women by the patriarchy is “the state of nature”. Not saying that’s the case but it’s at least as viable a conclusion as that which you reach. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/13 "2015-03-09T10:08:28Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I doubt the women back then were any more ready to participate in orgies than now, and group sex is a very minority sport now. And back then there were the added detriments of no reliable birth control, and more venereal diseases that were a death sentence. > > I don’t imagine powerful men back then were any more keen on having their SO give birth to another man’s child than they would be now. The more so when the product of adultery might become the ruler. I really doubt that too many female head of households were participating in orgies. While the “female head of household” might well be barred from such festivities (or would be having sex only with her husband if present for some reason) slave women would not be held to the same rules. They would not have a choice. If they became pregnant so what, and who cared who the father was? (Well, sometimes the father did care because such bastards were sometimes acknowledged but they didn’t inherit power and wealth) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/14 "2015-03-09T10:25:48Z")
Indeed but that wasn’t the question. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/15 "2015-03-09T12:08:45Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Ahhh, the good “old state of nature” gambit. > > When you throw around the word “nature” as the basis for an argument be careful where it leads you. For example, the predominance of patriarchal human societies by your reasoning suggests that the control of women by the patriarchy is “the state of nature”. Not saying that’s the case but it’s at least as viable a conclusion as that which you reach. Quite right. My post was a pre-emptive attack on anticipated Flintstonianpsuedosociobiology which embarassingly hasnt arrived yet. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/16 "2015-03-09T12:22:14Z")
Hey, we’ve all been there: talk turned to orgies, and you ejaculated prematurely. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/17 "2015-03-09T14:09:59Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In older times across various cultures (Chinese, Japanese Roman etc) where orgies happened did both men and women of power participate in orgies . . . For Japan. No. Women on power did not participate in orgies. Also, men of power did not, either, but that question wasn’t asked, simply misstated as fact. _Barely Legal Asian Teens_ is not an accepted cite on SDBM for Japanese sexual behavior. These things are fiction, one should point out. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/18 "2015-03-09T15:06:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Ancient civilizations did not have our notions of “consent”. In many times and places the notion that a woman could have a basis to say “no” to her husband’s (or male owner’s) demand for sex was inconceivable - it just didn’t enter into anyone’s world view. Likewise, men were entitled to additional women under many circumstances and the approval or not of the wife(s) was irrelevant. > > For concubines, slaves, and the like - do you ask a fork if it consents to be used with dinner? > > That doesn’t mean it was all a nightmare - quite a few of the women probably participated with enjoyment. They just weren’t asked, they were told to show up at the party and that was that. Cite? Because, you are presuming that Hale’s assertion (History of the Pleas of the Crown, 1st ed. (1736), vol. 1, ch. 58, p. 629) that a wife could not refuse consent to intercourse was uncritically the position all over the world, when it was doubted even then by jurists and also well before the modern era (for instance Reg. v. Clarence (1888) 22 Q.B.D. 23.) As it is the Romans did criminalise forcible intercourse, they called it _strupum_, which was distinct from _raptio_ which was taking away a person from lawful guardianship, the word is confusingly the basis of “rape” even though the act is more akin to our kinapping). ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/19 "2015-03-09T16:41:03Z")
Well, there’s always Theodora, wife of Justinian I. She had a very interesting early life which I’m not going to google while at work. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557/20 "2015-03-09T16:55:24Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Cite? Because, you are presuming that Hale’s assertion (History of the Pleas of the Crown, 1st ed. (1736), vol. 1, ch. 58, p. 629) that a wife could not refuse consent to intercourse was uncritically the position all over the world, when it was doubted even then by jurists and also well before the modern era (for instance Reg. v. Clarence (1888) 22 Q.B.D. 23.) > > As it is the Romans did criminalise forcible intercourse, they called it _strupum_, which was distinct from _raptio_ which was taking away a person from lawful guardianship, the word is confusingly the basis of “rape” even though the act is more akin to our kinapping). +1 to this. It’s also worth pointing out that some premodern slave states did criminalize sex between masters and slaves (the Christian crusader states in the Levant, for example). The American South obviously didn’t, but then, racially based slavery as practiced in America was kind of an especialy bad permutation of a bad institution. As regards the OP, I’d suggest it varies quite a bit depending on what culture you look at. There’s a fair amount of evidence that our hunter-gatherer ancestors were fairly promiscuous, for example. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/recreational-origies-in-ancient-times-did-women-participate-consensually-in-historical-orgies/714557.md?page=2)