# "Red Nightmare" Claims--Question #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 18, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929 "2014-11-18T02:30:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/1 "2014-11-18T02:30:43Z")
In Red Nightmare, a classic propaganda short narrated by Jack Webb, a man wakes up to learn that his typical American town has, Invasion of The Body Snatchers–style, suddenly turned Commie. The local church or synagogue of his choice is now a museum where exhibits claim that the telephone and other American inventions were actually first developed in Russia. I often heard when I was young that The Soviet Union habitually told lies of this sort. It was a subject of continual jokes. For instance, there is one about it in the movie Lil’ Abner. In what seems like an allusion to this sort of behavior, in the novel 1984 The State makes the same sort of claims for itself, teaching schoolchildren that there were no airplanes or trains before the revolution. So: did The Soviet Union habitually claim to have invented everything? If so, did it ever drop this practice? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/2 "2014-11-18T03:05:15Z")
The Soviets tended to find Russian inventors for things…according to them, a Russian invented the first radio, the first telegraph, the first hot air balloon, the first airplane, the first light bulb, the first steam engine, etc. This started in the '40s, when the Soviet Union tried to promote Russian nationalism and patriotism, and continued up until the '80s. If you want another example in fiction, Star Trek’s Ensign Chekov claimed that Russians invented scotch, karate, the story Cinderella, and more. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/3 "2014-11-18T04:02:33Z")
It’s not unique to the USSR. Every country, including the U.S., likes to claim that it did things first, and that especially means inventions. The grade school notion of “an” inventor for a technology is itself silly propaganda. The light bulb was invented many times, in many ways, by many people, in many countries. So was the automobile. You can find whole books arguing about the competing claims about inventions like the airplane or the computer. I’m sure Stalin institutionalized this process. But he came very late to the game. It’s still going on. Just ask Americans who invented various things. Don’t be surprised if most of the answers turn out to be Americans. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/4 "2014-11-18T11:12:33Z")
Television, lightbulbs, the jet engine, to name but three. All British of course. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/5 "2014-11-18T16:01:59Z")
While granting that it occurs all over, the Russian practice was so egregious that it invariably became a joke. On Star Trek they apparently went out of their way to have Chekhov come up with these. One of the more interesting examples was in one of Alistair Cooke’s 1950s _Letters from America_ entitled “Beizball”, talking about a Russian claimj that they invented the game of baseball. It looks as if the material is included in his book _Fun and Games with Alistar Cooke_, chapter 6: > **[Fun & Games with Alistair Cooke](https://books.google.com/books?id=v2JhkvAKv6QC&pg=PR11&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false)** > > For over half a century Alistair Cooke has been reporting on and interpreting America to the rest of the world, both in print and on the air, bringing his unique blend of curiosity, wit, and perceptive analysis to bear on the sometimes glittering... ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/6 "2014-11-18T16:17:10Z")
I visited Iran back in 2004, and heard _a lot_ of stories like these. Refrigeration? Iranian. Human rights? Iranian. Dualism? Iranian. Goethe? (Honorary) Iranian. _Harry Potter_? Iranian. _Tom & Jerry_? Iranian. Yes - these are all actual examples that I heard. The “Indian dad” character on a British comedy show [similarly insists that everything of worth in the whole wide world is originally Indian](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln5QgeCL1fs). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/7 "2014-11-18T16:21:12Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If you want another example in fiction, Star Trek’s Ensign Chekov claimed that Russians invented scotch, karate, the story Cinderella, and more. And you really should read Shakespeare in the original Klingon. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/8 "2014-11-18T16:47:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If you want another example in fiction, Star Trek’s Ensign Chekov claimed that Russians invented scotch, karate, the story Cinderella, and more. “I remember, Peter the Great once had that problem.” ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/9 "2014-11-18T16:49:08Z")
An old friend of mine was married to a Russian woman. She insisted that Russia (Soviet Union) landed men on the moon, and they did it first. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/10 "2014-11-18T17:13:26Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > While granting that it occurs all over, the Russian practice was so egregious that it invariably became a joke. On Star Trek they apparently went out of their way to have Chekhov come up with these. It became a joke in America, even finding its way onto the normally very internationalist Star Trek, not because Russian practice in this regard was particularly egregious, but because, as the OP points out, _saying_ that the Russians did this, and mocking it, was an aspect of American anti-Soviet, anti-Communist propaganda. Nobody in the thread has yet provided a shred of evidence that the Russians, in Soviet times, indulged in this practice of claiming inventions to an unusually egregious extent. All of it is from American representations of Russians. It seems unlikely to me, i n fact, that the Soviet government would actually have been particularly given to this practice. The Soviet, Communist government rested its claims to legitimacy on the fact that it was _modernizing_ Russia, bringing it out of the backward state that it has been kept in under the oppressive rule of the Tsars. There would thus have been little or no positive propaganda value, if anything, the reverse, for Communists in pushing the idea that pre-Communist Russia was a hotbed of technological creativity. It is true that Stalin, in particular, was not above using Russian nationalism _as well as_ Marxist ideology to justify his rule, but that was a matter of exploiting pre-existing nationalistic prejudices that, though they certainly existed in Russia, were probably no greater than those found in other countries (certainly including the USA), were actually in conflict with the inherent internationalism of Marxism. (Which is why not only Western propagandists, but also left-wing critics of Stalinism, such as Trotsky and George Orwell, stigmatized Stalin’s exploitation of Russian nationalism as hypocritical.) ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/11 "2014-11-18T17:28:50Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > An old friend of mine was married to a Russian woman. She insisted that Russia (Soviet Union) landed men on the moon, and they did it first. And I have heard Americans claim that Sally Ride was the first woman in space. [Well, only 20 years late!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentina_Tereshkova). Of course, although they Soviets did not land any people on the moon, they did put the first people into space, and were the first to [“land” an Earth vehicle on the Moon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_2). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/12 "2014-11-18T17:31:09Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Nobody in the thread has yet provided a shred of evidence that the Russians, in Soviet times, indulged in this practice of claiming inventions to an unusually egregious extent. All of it is from American representations of Russians. It seems unlikely to me, i n fact, that the Soviet government would actually have been particularly given to this practice. I graduated from high school in Russia, in 1979. We were taught that Yablochkov invented the light bulb, Popov invented radio, Mozhaiski invented the heavier-than-light plane and Polzunov invented the steam engine. etc. etc. Yes, it was official Soviet line on these and other inventions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/13 "2014-11-18T17:33:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I graduated from high school in Russia, in 1979. We were taught that Yablochkov invented the light bulb, Popov invented radio, Mozhaiski invented the heavier-than-light plane and Polzunov invented the steam engine. etc. etc. Yes, it was official Soviet line on these and other inventions. Thanks for the solid info. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/14 "2014-11-18T17:39:18Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > While granting that it occurs all over, the Russian practice was so egregious that it invariably became a joke. On Star Trek they apparently went out of their way to have Chekhov come up with these. > > One of the more interesting examples was in one of Alistair Cooke’s 1950s _Letters from America_ entitled “Beizball”, talking about a Russian claimj that they invented the game of baseball. It looks as if the material is included in his book _Fun and Games with Alistar Cooke_, chapter 6: > > [Fun & Games with Alistair Cooke: On Sport and Other Amusements - Alistair Cooke - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=v2JhkvAKv6QC&pg=PR11&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false) In “1984” Winston Smith notes that Oceania claims that various inventions were invented by the Party, and expects that as time goes by, more and more inventions will be credited to the Party (see [1984 - George Orwell - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=kotPYEqx7kMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=1984&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pYNrVIDSKoWmyQTS_YHIAQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=aeroplane&f=false)) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/15 "2014-11-18T17:44:47Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The Soviet, Communist government rested its claims to legitimacy on the fact that it was _modernizing_ Russia, bringing it out of the backward state that it has been kept in under the oppressive rule of the Tsars. There would thus have been little or no positive propaganda value, if anything, the reverse, for Communists in pushing the idea that pre-Communist Russia was a hotbed of technological creativity. Yes and no. No propagandist is ever going to let a little thing like consistency keep them from bragging rights. Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, one of the great pioneering theorists of rocketry, did his most influential work in the Tsarist age, but that never stopped Russia from declaring him the father of rocketry. That was certainly true in the 1950s as the space programs drew headlines. Just as importantly, it was true even earlier, when Tsiolkovsky found himself feted in all the official newspapers in 1932, on the occasion of his 75th birthday. (We forget how much obsession there was with rocketry in the 1930s, especially in Europe.) I don’t have quick cites to hand, but my impression is that it’s related to what’s being said in[this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=740419). Russia’s claim to being an equal superpower to the U.S. was helped by its claims to technological prowess, both military might and the industrial help it promised emerging nations. Part of that lay in the intangibles of its boasts of having done everything first, i.e. without help from America or Europe. Was this exaggerated and made fun of by Americans? No doubt. But I think the jokes were based on a very large grain of truth. Maybe a boulder of truth. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/16 "2014-11-18T18:04:09Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > It became a joke in America, even finding its way onto the normally very internationalist Star Trek, not because Russian practice in this regard was particularly egregious, but because, as the OP points out, _saying_ that the Russians did this, and mocking it, was an aspect of American anti-Soviet, anti-Communist propaganda. > > Nobody in the thread has yet provided a shred of evidence that the Russians, in Soviet times, indulged in this practice of claiming inventions to an unusually egregious extent. Not true. My cite from Cooke was from _his_ citing a Russian article to the effect that the Russians invented baseball. **Terr** has given many more examples, more directly. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/17 "2014-11-18T18:35:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thanks for the solid info. The good thing is that where it counted, Russian schooling did not fudge. Boyle-Mariotte’s law was named correctly. Michaelson-Morley experiment was attributed correctly. Maxwell’s equations were Maxwell’s not some Russian name’s. etc. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/18 "2014-11-18T18:51:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The good thing is that where it counted, Russian schooling did not fudge. Boyle-Mariotte’s law was named correctly. Michaelson-Morley experiment was attributed correctly. Maxwell’s equations were Maxwell’s not some Russian name’s. etc. Actually, if they taught you that, they were certainly doing better than they would in the US – outside of France, people tend to leave Mariotte out of the Boyle-Nariotte Law. I only know about thsat myself because I’ve been researching Mariotte recently. I was brung up on Boyle’s law. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/19 "2014-11-18T18:58:29Z")
A couple of days ago I saw a picture of the Tunguska area from earlier this century, and the caption read “In pre-Soviet Russia, comet land on _you_!” ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929/20 "2014-11-18T19:19:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The good thing is that where it counted, Russian schooling did not fudge. Boyle-Mariotte’s law was named correctly. Michaelson-Morley experiment was attributed correctly. Maxwell’s equations were Maxwell’s not some Russian name’s. etc. \Maxwell is poor transliteration of “Maksimov”, good Russian name. He was from Vladivostok. Good Russian scientist, student of Heinrich Lenz at St. Petersburg. Very famous. England stole his name and his discoveries.\ Yes, I just made that all up. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-nightmare-claims-question-2/704929.md?page=2)