# "Red Pill" warning in GD **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 14, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588 "2018-08-14T13:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/61 "2018-08-15T15:42:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I thought that the moderation around outright misogyny was supposed to change, including in the Pit. If that isn’t outright misogyny, I don’t know what is. Respectfully disagree that it’s outright misogyny. However, I was unaware that “misogyny” is now banned in the Pit. Does that mean no one can post “women drivers”, “typical woman; can’t make up her mind” or similar in the Pit? Not saying I plan to post those things in The Pit, but I’d be surprised if that was now considered against the rules. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/62 "2018-08-15T19:06:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you’re talking about [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21145462&postcount=872), I don’t think it would warrant a warning even if it weren’t in the pit. Which rule do you think is being broken? > > Not at all saying I agree with the poster, but people are allowed to post disagreeable positions here as long as they don’t break any rules. I would think that would get a Note, at least- anywhere but the Pit. So, nothing there, but of course everyone can tell him exactly how very wrong he is, using their favorite obscenities. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/63 "2018-08-15T19:07:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Meanwhile, while we’re discussing whether or not it was worth warning me for attacking a bullshit ideology, the silence on a guy arguing that a woman who was raped while she was unconscious is responsible is quite audible. “whataboutism” - a perfect example.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/64 "2018-08-15T21:07:47Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This approach to moderation sums up just about all my problems here. “Say whatever you want, no matter how wrong, no matter how stupid, no matter how dishonest, no matter how shitty, misogynistic, racist, no matter how clearly it marks you as a stupid troll not worth talking to, as long as you don’t call someone on their bullshit, you’re _just fine_.” That’s a shitty approach to moderation, because the people it culls are inevitably going to be decent, well-meaning people rather than shitty dishonest misinformation-spewing trolls. You realize that unpopular opinions or non “politically correct” opinions can always be labeled some form of bigotry right? Take immigration. Outside of advocating open borders and a voucher for travel one can be labeled a racist and then banned. Discuss wage disparity as a function of life choices? Misogynist! Discuss differences in sports performances between men and women? Bigot. Ask why there are different rates in differing forms of behavior between different ideologies or religions? Racist! Weaponized language in order to demonize and silence different points of view is a very troubling tool. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/65 "2018-08-15T22:11:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Respectfully disagree that it’s outright misogyny. “Drunk women deserve to be raped” isn’t outright misogyny? Then nothing is. > [@](#): > > However, I was unaware that “misogyny” is now banned in the Pit. Does that mean no one can post “women drivers”, “typical woman; can’t make up her mind” or similar in the Pit? I don’t know, but I \*do \*know I’d certainly report any such posts I saw, given the recent threads about misogyny, pit or no. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/66 "2018-08-15T22:19:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “Drunk women deserve to be raped” isn’t outright misogyny? Then nothing is.I don’t know, but I \*do \*know I’d certainly report any such posts I saw, given the recent threads about misogyny, pit or no. Maybe we can get back to the OP? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/67 "2018-08-15T22:27:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “Drunk women deserve to be raped” isn’t outright misogyny? That probably is, but that’s not quite what he said in the post I quoted. I would call that an exaggerated paraphrase. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/68 "2018-08-16T04:13:22Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This approach to moderation sums up just about all my problems here. “Say whatever you want, no matter how wrong, no matter how stupid, no matter how dishonest, no matter how shitty, misogynistic, racist, no matter how clearly it marks you as a stupid troll not worth talking to, as long as you don’t call someone on their bullshit, you’re _just fine_.” That’s a shitty approach to moderation, because the people it culls are inevitably going to be decent, well-meaning people rather than shitty dishonest misinformation-spewing trolls. But that’s not the case here. You’re free to respond to someone that their post, everything they’ve written, every argument they’ve made, is utter bullshit. The idea is that people can be wrong, they can be spectacularly wrong in terrible ways. And we create an environment where that wrongness can be rebutted. ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Clark\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_K)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/69 "2018-08-16T05:26:36Z")
The warning for **Budget Player Cadet** exemplifies the kind of moderation that, in my opinion, sucks the life out of this site. It’s a warning over something that, if you squint and look at it from the right angle, might sorta be a personal insult. Instead of letting two grown people have a conversation (perhaps a heated one), we’re treated like children and the board gets yet another ATMB thread where every syllable of the potentially offensive comment is debated endlessly. If it’s not a clear-cut, no-doubt-about-it violation of the rules, don’t issue a warning. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/70 "2018-08-16T05:27:04Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > we create an environment where that wrongness can be rebutted. No, you really don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/71 "2018-08-16T05:51:28Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > But that’s not the case here. You’re free to respond to someone that their post, everything they’ve written, every argument they’ve made, is utter bullshit. The idea is that people can be wrong, they can be spectacularly wrong in terrible ways. And we create an environment where that wrongness can be rebutted. And if the only appropriate response is “Stop trolling”? Or, more appropriately, “All right, time to stop engaging with this person because they are obviously a troll”? Because lemme tell you, the moderators sure as hell ain’t gonna make _that_ call, even when it is _painfully_ obvious. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/72 "2018-08-16T06:13:56Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And if the only appropriate response is “Stop trolling”? Or, more appropriately, “All right, time to stop engaging with this person because they are obviously a troll”? Because lemme tell you, the moderators sure as hell ain’t gonna make _that_ call, even when it is _painfully_ obvious. If you get to the point where you simply can’t or don’t want to engage in further debate, but want to call the poster out for trolling, why not just take it to the Pit? You can pretty much go all out there, as long as you don’t wish harm on the poster or engage in what is considered hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/73 "2018-08-16T06:35:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, you really don’t. You just rebutted an apparent wrongness with no sanction. I think you proved Bone’s point. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/74 "2018-08-16T06:43:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You just rebutted an apparent wrongness with no sanction. I think you proved Bone’s point. Bone wasn’t being racist. We don’t have an “atmosphere” where one can rebut racists without sanction. Because we’re not allowed to call them what they are in the same threads where they are being racists. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/75 "2018-08-16T06:51:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Bone wasn’t being racist. We don’t have an “atmosphere” where one can rebut racists without sanction. Because we’re not allowed to call them what they are in the same threads where they are being racists. You mean you are not allowed to read their mind and call them what you find within. You are, however, perfectly free to rebut any point of view they have with your own facts, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/76 "2018-08-16T06:54:34Z")
What does calling someone a racist do to rebut their statements? Do you find calling someone a racist different than other insults that it should be immune from that rule? _X race is smarter than Y race because reasons._ That can be rebutted by showing the reasons to be false, or misleading, or not accurate in whatever ways, etc. Or, the poster can be called a racist. Then what? That’s not an argument, that’s name calling. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/77 "2018-08-16T07:14:20Z")
> [@Clark\_K](#): > > The warning for **Budget Player Cadet** exemplifies the kind of moderation that, in my opinion, sucks the life out of this site. It’s a warning over something that, if you squint and look at it from the right angle, might sorta be a personal insult. Instead of letting two grown people have a conversation (perhaps a heated one), we’re treated like children and the board gets yet another ATMB thread where every syllable of the potentially offensive comment is debated endlessly. > > If it’s not a clear-cut, no-doubt-about-it violation of the rules, don’t issue a warning. The Pit is honestly a really bad idea in practice. Most boards, even boards with pretty lively, intelligent debates, just let people get heated and insult each other. Mods will break it up if it gets too slapfighty, but just letting people insult each other removes all the rules lawyering and up-to-the-line sniping. Hell, even here, the Pit is almost a better GD, just with less thread diversity due to both the presence of GD, the volume of “fuck this poster” threads, and omnibus threads. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/78 "2018-08-16T08:09:14Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > What does calling someone a racist do to rebut their statements? It handily references a whole corpus of work that’s already been done to refute racist arguments. Just like there’s really no need to do more rebuttal with a Flat Earther than point out they’re a Flat Earther, same-same with racists. And you seem to have made the mistake of taking what I said (not being able to name racists as racists means the “atmosphere” isn’t really conducive to rebuttal) as me saying calling them racists would be _the whole of_ the rebuttal. That would be wrong. All the other tools of rebuttal would still be there, but dancing around naming their actual malfunction doesn’t create a conducive “atmosphere” at all. > [@](#): > > Do you find calling someone a racist different than other insults that it should be immune from that rule? “Racist” isn’t _necessarily_ an insult the way “shithead” or “cunt” are, it’s a descriptor with baggage, like “misogynist”, or “Democrat”, or “feminist”. You just have to look at a poster who’s[happy to call themselves a racist](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20832726&postcount=398) to see that. > [@](#): > > _X race is smarter than Y race because reasons._ > That can be rebutted by showing the reasons to be false, or misleading, or not accurate in whatever ways, etc. Why the hell _should_ it be? That’s you (the mods) giving their arguments a veneer of respectability. Something I’ve noted seems to be handled very differently for the particular case of anti-black racism than other forms of prejudice. There are no persistent threads here on why Jews are greedy, gays are degenerates or women are bitches. But “blacks are dumb” is the _perennial_ subject you _choose_ to be all “both sides” on. > [@](#): > > That’s not an argument, that’s name calling. NO, that’s accurate naming. ---
**Author:** ![Huey\_Freeman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/huey_freeman/32/251_2.png) [@Huey\_Freeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huey_Freeman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/79 "2018-08-16T16:55:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > What does calling someone a racist do to rebut their statements? Do you find calling someone a racist different than other insults that it should be immune from that rule? > > _X race is smarter than Y race because reasons._ > That can be rebutted by showing the reasons to be false, or misleading, or not accurate in whatever ways, etc. Or, the poster can be called a racist. Then what? That’s not an argument, that’s name calling. :eek: Your point would be valid _if_ there wasn’t a long history of people of color portrayed as unintelligent in media, literature, and academia. Kuchiyose No Jutsu Take it from here, Lewis, _[1916](https://psychaanalyse.com/pdf/THE_MEASUREMENT_OF_INTELLIGENCE.pdf)_-style. > [@Lewis Terman](#): > > C. P. Boy, age 10-2; mental age 7-11; I Q 78. Portuguese boy, son of a skilled laborer. One of eleven children, most of whom have about this same grade of intelligence. Has attended school regularly for four years. Is in the third grade, but cannot do the work. Except for extreme stubbornness his social development is fairly normal. Capable in plays and games, but is regarded as impossible in his school work. Like his brother, M. P., the next case to be described, he will doubtless become a fairly reliable laborer at unskilled work and will not be regarded, in his rather simple environment, as a defective. From the psychological point of view, however, his deficiency is real. He will probably never develop beyond the 11- or 12-year level or be able to do satisfactory school work beyond the fifth or sixth grade. > > M. P. Boy, age 14; mental age 10-8; I Q 77. Has been tested four successive years, I Q being always between 75 and 80. Brother to C. P. above. In school nearly eight years and has been promoted to the fifth grade. At 16 was doing poor work in the sixth grade. Good school advantages, as the father has tried conscientiously to give his children “a good education.” Perfectly normal in appearance and in play activities and is liked by other children. Seems to be thoroughly dependable both in school and in his outside work. Will probably become an excellent laborer and will pass as perfectly normal, notwithstanding a grade of intelligence which will not develop above 11 or 12 years. > > … According to the classical definition of feeble-mindedness such individuals cannot be considered defectives. Hardly any thousands like them. They are the world’s “hewers of wood and drawers of water.” And yet, as far as intelligence is concerned, the tests have told the truth. \*\*These boys are uneducable beyond the merest rudiments of training. No amount of school instruction will ever make them intelligent voters or capable citizens in the true sense of the word. Judged psychologically they cannot be considered normal. It is interesting to note that M. P. and C. P. represent the level of intelligence which is very, very common among Spanish-Indian and Mexican families of the Southwest and also among negroes. Their dullness seems to be racial, or at least inherent in the family stocks from which they come. \*\*The fact that one meets this type with such extraordinary frequency among Indians, Mexicans, and negroes suggests quite forcibly that the whole question of racial differences in mental traits will have to be taken up anew and by experimental methods. **The writer predicts that when this is done there will be discovered enormously significant racial differences in general intelligence, differences which cannot be wiped out by any scheme of mental culture. Children of this group should be segregated in special classes and be given instruction which is concrete and practical.** They cannot master abstractions, but they can often be made efficient workers, able to look out for themselves. There is no possibility at present of convincing society that they should not be allowed to reproduce, although **from a eugenic point of view they constitute a grave problem because of their unusually prolific breeding.** ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588/80 "2018-08-16T18:56:17Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > Your point would be valid _if_ there wasn’t a long history of people of color portrayed as unintelligent in media, literature, and academia. No. Not sure which point you think isn’t valid, but each point made is valid objectively, independent of current or historical circumstance. Specifically, there are three points I made that you quoted: [ol] [li]The rule against name calling doesn’t have an exception for “racist”.[/li][li]If a poster makes an assertion based on reasons that are racist, those reasons can be rebutted.[/li][li]Calling a person racist does nothing to rebut the reasons offered.[/li][/ol] Those three statements are true regardless of historic and current racism. > [@MrDibble](#): > > It handily references a whole corpus of work that’s already been done to refute racist arguments. Just like there’s really no need to do more rebuttal with a Flat Earther than point out they’re a Flat Earther, same-same with racists. > > And you seem to have made the mistake of taking what I said (not being able to name racists as racists means the “atmosphere” isn’t really conducive to rebuttal) as me saying calling them racists would be _the whole of_ the rebuttal. That would be wrong. All the other tools of rebuttal would still be there, but dancing around naming their actual malfunction doesn’t create a conducive “atmosphere” at all. You may make reference to past work that refutes reasons offered - that’s great. Calling someone a racist does not do that. Certainly if a rebuttal contained more content than calling someone a racist it would have more merit. But when talking about rules to apply - there can’t be a rule that says you can call people racists if you also add additional content supporting the view. Because if we allow people to call other posters racists, then there can be no sanction if that is the whole of the rebuttal. 200 posters in a row could simply reply, “you are a racist” as the entirety of their posts and it would be allowable if we relax the rule against calling people racists. And more to the point, if there would be other tools of rebuttal presented, then what value does name calling add? It would be gratifying for sure. But that doesn’t advance debate. If someone advances a racist argument, you are free to call them on the poorness of the argument. That every premise is flawed, the conclusions are not sound, the facts are wrong or are based on lies. The science is fake, the biological analysis is poor, etc. You can call the entire post utter bullshit devoid of reason and worthless for meaningful discussion because it is premised on so much wrongness. That’s all fine, and I would encourage it. Name calling however, is not conducive to debate. Name calling is destructive to debate. > [@](#): > > Why the hell _should_ it be? That’s you (the mods) giving their arguments a veneer of respectability. To be clear, that we allow certain topics doesn’t mean we respect them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-pill-warning-in-gd/819588.md?page=5)