# Red Right Hand **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 30, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-right-hand/386049 "2006-12-30T00:05:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nilesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Nilesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nilesta)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-right-hand/386049/1 "2006-12-30T00:05:52Z")
Specifically, the song, Red Right Hand (Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds). The phrase, red right hand, is in fairly common use, and typically reffer to something or someone much like in the song. Not really ‘evil’ but … much larger than you likely want to be involved with. Foreboding, or ominous. Where does this phrase come from, did it originate with that song? I think it was around before the song. We’ve found a few explainations, that don’t quite seem to fit. The Red hand of Ulster (someone cut of his hand to win a race and become king: [Red Hand of Ulster - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hand_of_Ulster)), and what was actually a silv3er hand (but may be closer to the actual origin), of Nuada, king of the Tuatha Dé Danann ([Nuada Airgetlám - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuada)). Neither seem to fit. So? Teeming milions? Google couldn’t tell me. So you’ll have to look harder than that! ---
**Author:** ![Myself](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@Myself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myself)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-right-hand/386049/2 "2006-12-30T03:54:07Z")
Didn’t they used to dip a soldier’s right hand in red paint when he couldn’t tell his right from left? Might this be connected? I’ve never heard this phrase before. Is this a regionalism? ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-right-hand/386049/3 "2006-12-30T06:03:14Z")
[QUOTE=Nilesta] Where does this phrase come from, did it originate with that song? I think it was around before the song. We’ve found a few explainations, that don’t quite seem to fit. [/QUOTE] Nick Cave is pretty explicit that the line is a reference to _Paradise Lost_. See also his “Song of Joy”: “In my house he wrote ‘his red right hand’/That, I’m told is from Paradise Lost.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-right-hand/386049/4 "2006-12-30T07:30:04Z")
In Book 2, Lucifer and his supporters, having retreated to Hell, are debating whether to attack heaven, again, in open warfare or through deceit and trickery. Moloch argues for open warfare. To which Belial replies: - . . . On th’ other side up rose Belial, in act more graceful and humane. A fairer person lost not Heaven; he seemed For dignity composed, and high exploit. But all was false and hollow; though his tongue Dropped manna, and could make the worse appear The better reason, to perplex and dash Maturest counsels: for his thoughts were low– To vice industrious, but to nobler deeds Timorous and slothful. Yet he pleased the ear, And with persuasive accent thus began:– "I should be much for open war, O Peers, As not behind in hate, if what was urged Main reason to persuade immediate war Did not dissuade me most, and seem to cast Ominous conjecture on the whole success; When he who most excels in fact of arms,…_he = Moloch_ In what he counsels and in what excels Mistrustful, grounds his courage on despair And utter dissolution, as the scope Of all his aim, after some dire revenge. First, what revenge? The towers of Heaven are filled With armed watch, that render all access Impregnable: oft on the bodering Deep Encamp their legions, or with obscure wing Scout far and wide into the realm of Night, Scorning surprise. Or, could we break our way By force, and at our heels all Hell should rise With blackest insurrection to confound Heaven’s purest light, yet our great Enemy, All incorruptible, would on his throne Sit unpolluted, and th’ ethereal mould, Incapable of stain, would soon expel Her mischief, and purge off the baser fire, Victorious. Thus repulsed, our final hope Is flat despair: we must exasperate Th’ Almighty Victor to spend all his rage;…_Victor = God_ And that must end us; that must be our cure– To be no more. Sad cure! for who would lose, Though full of pain, this intellectual being, Those thoughts that wander through eternity, To perish rather, swallowed up and lost In the wide womb of uncreated Night, Devoid of sense and motion? And who knows, Let this be good, whether our angry Foe Can give it, or will ever? How he can Is doubtful; that he never will is sure. Will he, so wise, let loose at once his ire, Belike through impotence or unaware, To give his enemies their wish, and end Them in his anger whom his anger saves To punish endless? ‘Wherefore cease we, then?’ Say they who counsel war; ‘we are decreed, Reserved, and destined to eternal woe; Whatever doing, what can we suffer more, What can we suffer worse?’ Is this, then, worst– Thus sitting, thus consulting, thus in arms? What when we fled amain, pursued and struck With Heaven’s afflicting thunder, and besought The Deep to shelter us? This Hell then seemed A refuge from those wounds. Or when we lay Chained on the burning lake? That sure was worse. What if the breath that kindled those grim fires, Awaked, should blow them into sevenfold rage, And plunge us in the flames; or from above Should intermitted vengeance arm again His _ **red right hand** _ to plague us? What if all…_“red right hand” = either Hand of God or Michael_ Her stores were opened, and this firmament Of Hell should spout her cataracts of fire, Impendent horrors, threatening hideous fall One day upon our heads; while we perhaps, Designing or exhorting glorious war, Caught in a fiery tempest, shall be hurled, Each on his rock transfixed, the sport and prey Or racking whirlwinds, or for ever sunk Under yon boiling ocean, wrapt in chains, There to converse with everlasting groans, Unrespited, unpitied, unreprieved, Ages of hopeless end? This would be worse.\* The “red right hand” appears to be that of God, crushing the rebellion, (although I guess it could be the archangel Michael, the “right hand” of God’s army–I do not have an annotated Milton). [http://www.online-literature.com/view.php/paradiselost/2?term=red%20right%20hand](http://www.online-literature.com/view.php/paradiselost/2?term=red%20right%20hand) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-right-hand/386049/5 "2006-12-30T07:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] Nick Cave is pretty explicit that the line is a reference to _Paradise Lost_. See also his “Song of Joy”: “In my house he wrote ‘his red right hand’/That, I’m told is from Paradise Lost.” [/QUOTE] Of course, the “I’m told” indicates that Cave was not familiar with the exact quotation, so it remains unclear how _Cave_ intended to use it. If he got the allusion wrong, it could mean just about anything in Cave’s work. ---
**Author:** ![Kraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b77776/32.png) [@Kraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kraut)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-right-hand/386049/6 "2006-12-30T11:26:39Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Of course, the “I’m told” indicates that Cave was not familiar with the exact quotation, so it remains unclear how _Cave_ intended to use it. If he got the allusion wrong, it could mean just about anything in Cave’s work. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=tomndebb] Of course, the “I’m told” indicates that Cave was not familiar with the exact quotation, so it remains unclear how _Cave_ intended to use it. If he got the allusion wrong, it could mean just about anything in Cave’s work. [/QUOTE] Cave has expressed himself as a very passionate fan of Milton’s work, so there’s no doubt he correctly understood the significance of the phrase when he made the allusion in _Red Right Hand_ and _Song of Joy_. It’s very easy to confuse the phrase “I’m told” as potential ignorance on Cave’s part, unless you’ve actually heard the song itself: Cave is playing the role of a vagrant retelling the gruesome tale of his family’s murder at the hands of a Milton-quoting butcher. Although the mysterious stranger makes himself appear as an innocent widower, as the song reaches its climax it’s revealed that _he_ is the real murderer and is now travelling from home to home to satisfy his bloodlust. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Doris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@Sir\_Doris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Doris)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-right-hand/386049/7 "2006-12-30T11:38:45Z")
Beaten to it by **Kraut** I have every confidence Cave is fully aware of all the literary references he uses. A good many of his songs are ‘in character’, as Kraut has explained, so those chracters may be less sure. Cave also uses “or so I’m told” in The Mercy Seat (with reference to Jesus being a carpenter) – again certainly not autobiographical, and he knows his Bible well enough. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-right-hand/386049/8 "2006-12-30T17:39:48Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Of course, the “I’m told” indicates that Cave was not familiar with the exact quotation, so it remains unclear how _Cave_ intended to use it. If he got the allusion wrong, it could mean just about anything in Cave’s work. [/QUOTE] The “I” in “I’m told” is the speaker in the song, who is not Cave himself.