# Red Rover, Red Rover, send Rand Rover over **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 25, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739 "2009-03-25T15:22:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/181 "2009-03-26T12:55:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Her picture is at the top. > > Regards, > Shodan Where do you get a picture of the woman as “bringing up race” in the article? Did the picture come with a caption that said, “Please feel sorry for this woman because she’s black” or something, because I missed that part? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/182 "2009-03-26T13:03:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Her picture is at the top. The claim you were disputing was that **Rand Rover** was the first person who brought up the issue of race in the original thread. Are you really, seriously saying that displaying a photograph of a black person is, in itself, a comment on that person’s race? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/183 "2009-03-26T13:17:15Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > The claim you were disputing was that **Rand Rover** was the first person who brought up the issue of race in the original thread. Are you really, seriously saying that displaying a photograph of a black person is, in itself, a comment on that person’s race? Yes, of course it is. Don’t be ridiculous. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/184 "2009-03-26T13:21:49Z")
Is the converse true? Is every article with a picture of a white person commenting on his race? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/185 "2009-03-26T13:22:00Z")
\*\*Rand Rover’s \*\*initial comment re: race … > [@](#): > > I forgot to take into account that she’s black and rented the house for the children! I take it all back! Oh, my heart aches for this poor, poor, dear woman! Why, I have a couple of extra bedrooms! She and the children could live with me! She must be protected from her own decisions, for she is a female and is black and therefore does not know any better! He, and apparently **Shodan** , got that all from a picture which dared expose her as being black. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/186 "2009-03-26T13:22:29Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > That’s manners, as you say. Compassion is something else. > > Interesting. I think this country is full of people who are polite and confuse that for compassion, and substitute the one for the latter. > > The niceties are nice, but as Shakespeare says, one can smile and smile and be a villain. And you don’t bother to smile. :rolleyes: Honest to Pete, this place is a bastion of the picayune. Manners are an aspect of compassion–think Venn diagrams. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/187 "2009-03-26T13:22:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, of course it is. Don’t be ridiculous. Well that is certainly revealing. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/188 "2009-03-26T13:27:08Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Let’s say that a person walks outside their house and is immediately abducted by an alien. The aliens return the person after performing horrible experiments (the ass is involved, naturally). > > I have sympathy for this person. The bad thing this person experienced was not a reasonably foreseeable consequence of their decision to leave their house. Also, the decision to leave their house isn’t a “business decision,” it’s an “everyday ordinary type of decision.” You have got to be kidding. What an insight into how your mind works. Thanks for that. It would take something impossible to elicit your “sympathy”–good to know. I also read your bolded “yeses” post. You don’t see the inherent contradiction present. I think (seriously) there is something wrong with your brain. Have you seen a doctor? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/189 "2009-03-26T13:31:17Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > You have got to be kidding. What an insight into how your mind works. Thanks for that. Cut him some slack— it took some deep probing for him to come up with that analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/190 "2009-03-26T13:32:43Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Is the converse true? Is every article with a picture of a white person commenting on his race? Obviously. Put it this way - if a newspaper publishes pictures of people arrested for street crimes, is that commenting on their race? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/191 "2009-03-26T13:34:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You know, MY family decided to buy a house after years of renting…only for my dad to be laid off, because he found out his boss was committing insurance fraud! Isn’t that just lovely!!! And it was all Dad’s fault, right? > > I hope someone gives you a good solid kick in the balls. Twice. With steel-toed boots. Guin, why are you continuing to mischaracterize my position? Other posters are finally taking the time to understand what I am saying, but you persist in your pig headedness. What sort of mental illness would cause you to do this? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/192 "2009-03-26T13:39:00Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > He did not come out and say this directly, but I maintain that it is an unspoken assumption that underlines his reasoning. > > Any possible outcome of a business transaction short of alien abduction is essentially, by **Rand’s** definition, “forseeable” once it occurs. My sense is that there can be an entire chain of causes between the transaction and the outcome, but as long as they can somehow be linked to the original transaction, the outcome is “forseeable” by **Rand’s** definition. I continue to maintain that this is a pretty terrible ex post way of reasoning. A thought experiment would be to imagine **Rand** listing all of the possible risks of entering into a transaction. Then suppose something extremely unlikely occurred which could, even tangentially, be demonstrated to flow from the original transaction. Should Rand have forseen it? Would he maintain that it is someone else’s fault (socialists, democrats, liberals, whatever)? The fact that one might be able to connect a chain of causes from a transaction to an outcome does not make that outcome inherently forseeable. God but you are a fucking stupid little creature. How many times do I have to say “REASONABLY foreseeable” before you start to think that maybe what I really mean is REASONABLY foreseeable? If a reasponable person wouldn’t have foreseen it, then it’s not reasonably foreseeable. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/193 "2009-03-26T13:42:05Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > I would like, nay, I would **love** for you or someone else to step forward and raise the level of discussion to new heights of legerity and wit. I would enjoy being attacked with scalpel wit and laser precision, as you simultaneously crush my ego and demonstrate the raw idiocy of Rand’s position! Yet I am forced to deal with your excuse for wit, slightly less edged than a bowling ball, and wielded with the same level of delicacy. > > Christ. I’d make a comment about going now to throw myself in the river, but I imagine that you would seize upon such a comment and make the exceedingly obvious rejoinder, thus further reducing my opinion of your mental prowess and pinking shear wit. It may be counterintuitive, but simply repeating the word “wit” is not an actual demonstration of wit. Allow me to cold-read for a moment: somewhere between 18-22 years old, male of course, college freshman or recent dropout. Scores slightly above average on intelligence tests, but a consistent underachiever. “Class clown” personality; few if any close friends. May still live with parents or is partially supported by them. History of menial jobs, mainly or exclusively service industry; fired from at least two of them. Often mildly to moderately stoned. Has a sizable collection of books, intended mostly for show. Heterosexual, presently unattached. Drives a car that was purchased for him. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/194 "2009-03-26T13:59:26Z")
Hey Rand, this was buried in another post above so you might have missed it. > [@me](#): > > Do you feel sympathy for someone who wakes up one morning to discover that they are being evicted right there, that very day, as in they must leave the house right now this very minute, all because the landlord failed months ago to relay crucial information about the relevant status of the property? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/195 "2009-03-26T14:02:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Obviously. > > Put it this way - if a newspaper publishes pictures of people arrested for street crimes, is that commenting on their race? Speaking as someone who works for a newspaper, it’s a comment on the need to fill space on the page and to break up a wall of text. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/196 "2009-03-26T14:04:01Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Cut him some slack— it took some deep probing for him to come up with that analogy. I’ve got a deep probe for his **anal** ogy _right here_. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/197 "2009-03-26T14:04:44Z")
All right, I’ll go there. Whining about Rand Rover’s lack of compassion is misplaced. His compassion or lack of compassion, or the compassion or lack of compassion of other people doesn’t matter a hill of beans to that lady who got evicted. It’s great that you feel sorry for her. It makes you a good person. And then you turn the page and go on with your life. Your compassion for this woman is utterly meaningless. Now of course, your compassionate emotions are meaningful to the people you interact with on a day to day basis. I’m sure your kids and spouse appreciate your compassion. But if compassion just means feeling sorry for someone, shaking your head and walking away then screw compassion. Screw empathy. Your compassion is a substitute for assistance, it allows you to consider yourself a good person even though you didn’t do jack shit. Rand Rover did exactly as much as you did, which was nothing. If your compassion leads you to actions that help others, then compassion is good. Otherwise it’s emotional masturbation. There’s also such a thing as manners. It’s rude to hurt someone’s feelings for no particular reason. So if your neighbor gets evicted and you feel compassion for them but don’t plan to actually do anything for them, it’s not nice to point and laugh at them. Minimum standards of human decency dictate that you say, “Geez, that’s terrible Bob, I’m so sorry this happened” as you stride off to work past all his possessions piled up on the front lawn. But feeling sorry for Bob doesn’t make you a good person, it just makes you not a horrible person. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/198 "2009-03-26T14:11:38Z")
Wow, **ivn1188** , you are a whiny little bitch, aren’t you? It’s clear that you haven’t intellectually dominated anyone in this thread. You’ve just whined like a whiny little bitch. Look, if you can’t handle the rigors of playing on the Internet, perhaps you should play somewhere else. But around here, if you talk a lot of shit, you get called on it. RR talked a lot of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/199 "2009-03-26T14:15:33Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > You have got to be kidding. What an insight into how your mind works. Thanks for that. It would take something impossible to elicit your “sympathy”–good to know. I also read your bolded “yeses” post. You don’t see the inherent contradiction present. I think (seriously) there is something wrong with your brain. Have you seen a doctor? I like chocolate ice cream. Do you? If not you are mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/200 "2009-03-26T14:16:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > There’s also such a thing as manners. It’s rude to hurt someone’s feelings for no particular reason. So if your neighbor gets evicted and you feel compassion for them but don’t plan to actually do anything for them, it’s not nice to point and laugh at them. Minimum standards of human decency dictate that you say, “Geez, that’s terrible Bob, I’m so sorry this happened” as you stride off to work past all his possessions piled up on the front lawn. But feeling sorry for Bob doesn’t make you a good person, it just makes you not a horrible person. What angers me about RR is not the way he treats the woman in the article, but the way he treats and has treated other Dopers. That minimum standard of human decency? Doesn’t have it even amongst members of this community. ETA: That doesn’t mean I think he should turn into a hugs kind of poster. I just think, that in a thread clearly elicited to ask for sympathy/help/compassion, he can just butt right out. Plenty of people kick a man when he’s down. If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739.md?page=11)