# Red Rover, Red Rover, send Rand Rover over **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 25, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739 "2009-03-25T15:22:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/481 "2009-03-31T04:19:42Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I did not start assassinating Jodi’s character. I slammed lawyers in general. Jodi took it personally. Well, lawyers tend not to be that fond of lawyer jokes, first because they’ve likely heard them all already, and second, because they tend to be proud of their profession, and don’t like the assumption that they are unethical assholes. When you slam lawyers in general, you are assassinating her character, because she is a lawyer, and by insulting her profession you’re insulting her. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/482 "2009-03-31T04:28:32Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > but not the kind of lawyer who took offense to lawyer jokes because she recognized herself in them. White Guy: Niggers suck. Black Guy: Fuck you! White Guy: You’re only mad because you recognize yourself in my comment. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/483 "2009-03-31T04:29:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, I’m sure every woman would feel like a hallway to you. I haven’t felt every woman. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/484 "2009-03-31T04:31:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > White Guy: Niggers suck. > Black Guy: Fuck you! > White Guy: You’re only mad because you recognize yourself in my comment. Ooooh, comparing a class of people who were oppressed with lawyers to try to make lawyers look better and using the “n” word in the same sentence. Great comparison. Have a discount on bad analogies? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/485 "2009-03-31T04:42:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, lawyers tend not to be that fond of lawyer jokes, first because they’ve likely heard them all already, and second, because they tend to be proud of their profession, and don’t like the assumption that they are unethical assholes. When you slam lawyers in general, you are assassinating her character, because she is a lawyer, and by insulting her profession you’re insulting her. I didn’t tell any lawyer jokes. I slammed lawyers. Lawyers have nothing to be proud about for their profession in general. Maybe the individuals have something to be proud about, but the profession is a shame. Now when she told me “fuck you” she demonstrated that she was cut to the quick and belonged to the category. I have plenty of lawyer friends who like lawyer jokes. (Okay, I only have three lawyer friends who like lawyer jokes and one is a cousin.) To heck with her if she doesn’t like lawyer jokes. Now I will tell some of my favorite lawyer jokes: How can you tell when a lawyer is dead? She lies still! Why do they bury lawyers eight feet down, rather than the usual six? Because deep down they are really good. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/486 "2009-03-31T04:48:55Z")
I hope **Rand Rover** doesn’t get steamed about having his Pit thread hijacked out from under him. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/487 "2009-03-31T04:55:10Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > . Lawyers have nothing to be proud about for their profession in general. Maybe the individuals have something to be proud about, but the profession is a shame. There’s nothing seriously wrong with the legal profession in general. While there are obviously some bad or unethical attorneys out there, most aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/488 "2009-03-31T05:01:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > There’s nothing seriously wrong with the legal profession in general. While there are obviously some bad or unethical attorneys out there, most aren’t. As I’ve said earlier, it’s probably less than half. But frankly, that is about 45 percentage points too high. And I disagree with you about nothing being seriously wrong with the legal profession. It is mostly a billing business. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/489 "2009-03-31T05:07:32Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > Now you _must_ post the sig. Please. I’m hoping it is so tasteless and egregious that it justifies as humorless as response as I apparently gave you at the time. Seriously, please share it. I will remember I asked for it. Actually, you never specifically asked me to drop it. I just noted how you spoke of being weary of hearing the lawyer jokes all the time, and it inspired me to feel badly about having it in my .sig. Anyway, it’s from the climactic scene in the movie _Rustler’s Rhapsody_ (which I consider to be the funniest Western ever made, and that includes _Blazing Saddles_). Ahem: **Rex O’Herlihan** : _You’re not a good guy at all…_ **Bob Barker** : _I’m a LAWYER, you idiot!_ Context on request. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/490 "2009-03-31T05:07:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > As I’ve said earlier, it’s probably less than half. But frankly, that is about 45 percentage points too high. And I disagree with you about nothing being seriously wrong with the legal profession. It is mostly a billing business. You seriously think that over 45% of attorneys are unethical? That’s just absurd. And law firms tend to be moving away from hourly billing towards alternate fee structures. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/491 "2009-03-31T05:24:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > You seriously think that over 45% of attorneys are unethical? That’s just absurd. And law firms tend to be moving away from hourly billing towards alternate fee structures. I should distinguish between being part of a system that is designed to suck as much money out of litigants and clients as possible and technical unethicalness. The lack of morality in trying to suck as much money from people’s problems as possible I see all too frequently, and it is my opinion that it is easily about half of the lawyers out there. And the system that rewards the side that can crush the other in discovery, pre-trial motions and extended trials due to monetary advantage is simply not a just system. This cannot possibly be a new concept to most people here. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/492 "2009-03-31T05:26:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I should distinguish between being part of a system that is designed to suck as much money out of litigants and clients as possible and technical unethicalness. The lack of morality in trying to suck as much money from people’s problems as possible I see all too frequently, and it is my opinion that it is easily about half of the lawyers out there. And the system that rewards the side that can crush the other in discovery, pre-trial motions and extended trials due to monetary advantage is simply not a just system. This cannot possibly be a new concept to most people here. You have an extremely skewed view of the US legal system and your viewpoint isn’t supported by the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/493 "2009-03-31T05:58:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > You have an extremely skewed view of the US legal system and your viewpoint isn’t supported by the evidence. What evidence? I was stating my opinion based on my extensive personal experience and what the general public feels. You are aware that the general public does not trust lawyers or the legal system? [http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p\_mla\_apa\_research\_citation/0/9/6/1/0/p96101\_index.html](http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/9/6/1/0/p96101_index.html) I’m not making up this general feeling. [http://www.reason.com/news/show/31065.html](http://www.reason.com/news/show/31065.html) I understand that thinking that the legal system sucks and that there are a lot of shysters in the profession gets lawyers who are high and mighty in their arrogance to whine and cry and say “fuck you and the horse you rode in on”, but it is my opinion born of experience and shared by millions of Americans who share in a little bit of that experience. Lawyers are generally scum. Now if you would like to get to know one better to be able to say that that individual isn’t scum, fine with me, I can accept that there are exceptions to this widely held opinion. But if I spout that opinion and some lawyer whom I have never met responds first off with “fuck you and the horse you rode in on” I know that I am dealing with a petty asshole who is probably correct in thinking that I’m talking about lawyers like her. I don’t know Jodi from Adam. But I do know that she is disconnected enough from reality to not have a fucking clue why the public hates her own profession. I know she did it only once, but seriously what kind of asshole lawyer says “fuck you and the horse you rode in on” to a complete stranger who has plenty of cause to hate lawyers in general and says so? She doesn’t respond with, “I’d like to disabuse you of that notion, I’ve been taught to present facts to persuade people”, but rather “fuck you”. That’s a lawyer’s response? Bullshit. It is a rude person’s response. That she also happens to be a lawyer just makes her an obnoxious one. And then when I make jokes about her horse fetish, her band of winged flying socks sallies forth. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/494 "2009-03-31T06:27:50Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > It is a rude person’s response. I don’t think “fuck you” is a particularly rude response to this: > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The legal and judicial professions have worked very hard to earn the loathsome reputation that the public accords them. Please don’t pretend to false umbarage, the legal profession is scum. The exceptions work hard to be good citizens. Clearly, your mileage varies, likely because you’re a prick. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/495 "2009-03-31T06:34:30Z")
Interestingly, while lawyers fare about in the middle of most studies of respect for various professions, many of Americans’ most esteemed heroes were practicing lawyers. Lincoln is among the most beloved Presidents, and his status of lawyer is not incidental to his mystique. Thurgood Marshall is another popular hero. Ditto John Adams who famously defended the Brits involved in the Boston Massacre. There’s also Gandhi, of course, who became involved in civil rights as a lawyer. And you must add Clarence Darrow. That doesn’t even begin to examine well-loved fictional lawyers, like Atticus Finch. People who describe the legal profession as full of “shysters” and “generally scum” obviously make exceptions for Gandhi and Thurgood Marshall. But that doesn’t ever seem to disabuse them of this weird prejudice. Perhaps because, as the Reason article points out, this hate for lawyers is new. But there are thousands of lawyers right now doing the same work as Gandhi and Thurgood Marshall, who presumably by implication are also not scum. My guess is that the widespread dislike of lawyers is largely four factors, relatively modern factors: misunderstanding of the role of criminal defense lawyers (especially since the requirement of counsel for all criminal defendants, even the obviously guilty), ignorance about the tort system and cases like the famous McDonald’s coffee spill, sour grapes over personal losses in court, and like the Reason author, blaming lawyers for the growth of the regulatory state. None of those reasons really stands up to scrutiny, but they are good sources of prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/496 "2009-03-31T06:58:30Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > I don’t think “fuck you” is a particularly rude response to this: > > Clearly, your mileage varies, likely because you’re a prick. Likely a prick or a prick? I’ve been called worse. You don’t even have the courage to say it with conviction. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/497 "2009-03-31T07:17:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Interestingly, while lawyers fare about in the middle of most studies of respect for various professions, many of Americans’ most esteemed heroes were practicing lawyers. Lincoln is among the most beloved Presidents, and his status of lawyer is not incidental to his mystique. Thurgood Marshall is another popular hero. Ditto John Adams who famously defended the Brits involved in the Boston Massacre. There’s also Gandhi, of course, who became involved in civil rights as a lawyer. And you must add Clarence Darrow. That doesn’t even begin to examine well-loved fictional lawyers, like Atticus Finch. > > People who describe the legal profession as full of “shysters” and “generally scum” obviously make exceptions for Gandhi and Thurgood Marshall. But that doesn’t ever seem to disabuse them of this weird prejudice. Perhaps because, as the Reason article points out, this hate for lawyers is new. But there are thousands of lawyers right now doing the same work as Gandhi and Thurgood Marshall, who presumably by implication are also not scum. > > My guess is that the widespread dislike of lawyers is largely four factors, relatively modern factors: misunderstanding of the role of criminal defense lawyers (especially since the requirement of counsel for all criminal defendants, even the obviously guilty), ignorance about the tort system and cases like the famous McDonald’s coffee spill, sour grapes over personal losses in court, and like the Reason author, blaming lawyers for the growth of the regulatory state. None of those reasons really stands up to scrutiny, but they are good sources of prejudice. My beef isn’t with the lawyers who uphold the finest ideals of the legal profession. My complaints are lawyers who milk their clients as much as possible and then some. Judges who rule to favor their biases knowing the wronged party cannot afford an appeal. Appellate judges who mock precedent and bury their apostasy in unpublished decisions. Here is a decision in a case I have followed in the papers. [DA: Prosecutor Ben Field to remain on job while appealing suspension – The Mercury News](http://www.mercurynews.com/localnewsheadlines/ci_11692637) A prosecutor abused his power to deprive people of justice. Repeatedly. When finally caught dead to rights the Bar Court prosecutors did not even seek disbarment. The judge imposed a harsher sentence than the prosecutors asked for. He has appealed. I hope the son of a bitch gets disbarred. But his employer is still paying this sack of sleaze. The Bar Court prosecutor should be brought up on charges for asking for less than disbarment. The County prosecutor should be investigated for complicity. Let’s compare it to this case, where a county employee on the other side was fired for the slightest hint of impropriety. [http://www.lawmemo.com/blog/2009/02/employee\_must\_a.html](http://www.lawmemo.com/blog/2009/02/employee_must_a.html) Same county, same principles, but the prosecutor was never even questioned about possible criminal conduct by his employer, much less fired for refusing to answer. I’ve followed both these cases. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/498 "2009-03-31T07:41:28Z")
Wow, two responses in the same day. I’m honored. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Right, I think a troll is a troll based on their motivation. A liar is a liar based on their motivation. See also, murderer, thief, etc. and etc. Every criminal court in the country deals with issues of motivation on a day-to-day basis. Note: one can infer motivation from conduct, so the lines between the objective and subjective natures of the analysis get blurred. Well, OK, but generally criminal laws are based on the one act, not on overall conduct. And they generally don’t look at the intention as the only one possible. Your rule about trolling is too broad to be applied very effectively. But I’m sure you knew that. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > At no time did I say that I think someone must “engage in honest debate” in every post or they are a troll. > . . . > Some of my posts were posted just for the purpose of stirring shit up So by your own admission, you don’t always engage in honest debate tactics and in those very same posts, you may be stirring shit up. And you’re surprised that some people might think that those posts are trolling? :dubious: Because they should be looking at the other posts you make in other forums to determine that you aren’t? That’s an unreasonable standard. But it’s all good. As I said before, your threads have generally been entertaining and this one is no exception. This one has lawyers arguing with other lawyers about the reputation of the legal profession. You seem to bring out the best in everyone. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/499 "2009-03-31T14:07:31Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I don’t like lawyers or the legal system in general precisely because so many of them are more about telling people “fuck you” than seeing that the right thing is done. I can do both! _And_ without convincing a group of complete strangers that I’m a dick as I go about it. Something to aspire to, dude. These people are not my friends in any real sense of the word; I’ve never exchanged so much as an IM with any of them, so far as I know, nor have I met any of them IRL. This is not to say we might not be great friends, given the right context, but we are not friends now, today. And – surprise! – they certainly are not my “sock puppet posse,” as if all of them (or any of them) are alter-egos of mine, although I’m amused by the idea that you might even think they might be. Nor do I imagine that any one of them has stepped forward to defend me because he or she doubts my ability to do so myself. So here’s just a FYI: If several different people, with no uniting motivation, tell you you’re an asshole, it’s probably because you’re an asshole. But I appreciate your continued vitriol and here’s why: Your original comments about my profession offended me because I assumed you were a person whose opinions should be minimally respected and valued. With your postings since then, you have amply demonstrated that there is no reason to attach any weight to anything you say. What little I know of you I cannot respect and have no reason to like, which in turn makes me ask myself why I am bothering to talk to you at all. This in turn leads me to be you a civil, if insincere, good day. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/500 "2009-03-31T14:26:27Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Here is a decision in a case I have followed in the papers. [DA: Prosecutor Ben Field to remain on job while appealing suspension – The Mercury News](http://www.mercurynews.com/localnewsheadlines/ci_11692637) > > … > > Let’s compare it to this case, where a county employee on the other side was fired for the slightest hint of impropriety. [http://www.lawmemo.com/blog/2009/02/employee\_must\_a.html](http://www.lawmemo.com/blog/2009/02/employee_must_a.html) The “county employee” in the second case was a deputy public defender, in other words, a lawyer. Is it only prosecutors who are 45 percent sleazebags? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739.md?page=26)