# Red Rover, Red Rover, send Rand Rover over **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 25, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739 "2009-03-25T15:22:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/501 "2009-03-31T17:59:54Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > I can do both! _And_ without convincing a group of complete strangers that I’m a dick as I go about it. Something to aspire to, dude. > > These people are not my friends in any real sense of the word; I’ve never exchanged so much as an IM with any of them, so far as I know, nor have I met any of them IRL. This is not to say we might not be great friends, given the right context, but we are not friends now, today. And – surprise! – they certainly are not my “sock puppet posse,” as if all of them (or any of them) are alter-egos of mine, although I’m amused by the idea that you might even think they might be. Nor do I imagine that any one of them has stepped forward to defend me because he or she doubts my ability to do so myself. So here’s just a FYI: If several different people, with no uniting motivation, tell you you’re an asshole, it’s probably because you’re an asshole. > > But I appreciate your continued vitriol and here’s why: Your original comments about my profession offended me because I assumed you were a person whose opinions should be minimally respected and valued. With your postings since then, you have amply demonstrated that there is no reason to attach any weight to anything you say. What little I know of you I cannot respect and have no reason to like, which in turn makes me ask myself why I am bothering to talk to you at all. This in turn leads me to be you a civil, if insincere, good day. Yet you did what you did. You “bothered” to tell a complete stranger expressing a general opinion on lawyers “fuck you”. And I don’t have any respect for someone whose introduction to another person is “fuck you and the horse you rode in on”. It is exactly the kind of snotty superior attitude I was writing about. And I don’t care if you attach any weight to the things I say simply because it is me saying them. That is the antithesis of good argument. If I say something that has merit, I expect people who know the difference to decide that by themselves. If I say something stupid, then it can be disregarded. Personally I don’t care if people think I’m an asshole for my views on the legal profession (or anything else). I am who I am, I don’t go around saying “fuck you” to complete strangers, and if they think I’m an asshole for my views or responding in kind to “fuck you” it says at least as much about them as it does me. And if you can’t take it after you start dishing it out, that says a lot about you too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/502 "2009-03-31T18:14:07Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The “county employee” in the second case was a deputy public defender, in other words, a lawyer. Is it only prosecutors who are 45 percent sleazebags? You need to read the cases. The prosecutors got the public defender fired for not disclosing that he knew the location of a witness. And criminally charged him. The charges were dismissed. The firing stuck. The prosecutor in a different case in the same county was charged only under the ethics rules, not criminally, with falsifying evidence in four cases. He has been convicted by the Bar Court and is now appealing. The prosecutor was not only not criminally charged, he is still employed. Same county prosecutor’s office. The bar prosecutor (different office) only asked for three years’ suspension, the court imposed five years, he is appealing. Each of the four offenses is subject to disbarment and is a felony. There are no criminal charges from his own office. That says to me that the whole office is corrupt. He has been found liable in State Bar court and still no criminal charges or even a firing or even employer discipline, despite the fact that the conviction in the State Bar court establishes probable cause. I don’t entirely approve of what the PD did. But it is not a fireable offense. It was not a criminal offense, yet he was criminal charged by the prosecutor’s office, who had to drop the charges. Same county, same prosecutor’s office. And yes, my shock here is mostly at the corruption of the prosecutor’s office. If hypothetically I were the head of the prosecutor’s office coming into office just after the State Bar Court’s decision, the unethical prosecutor would be fired, appeal pending or not. I would then look to see what could be done about bringing criminal charges either in my office or ask the state Attorney General (Governor Moonbeam) to handle it on conflict grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/503 "2009-03-31T18:31:52Z")
So you really don’t like the Santa Clara prosecutor’s office. How are these two cases are evidence of your claim that 45 percent of lawyers are sleazebags? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/504 "2009-03-31T18:40:19Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > So you really don’t like the Santa Clara prosecutor’s office. How are these two cases are evidence of your claim that 45 percent of lawyers are sleazebags? I said about half, the 45 percent figure was a response to someone else suggesting that it was only a very small percentage and I suggested it was about 45 points higher. I used the word “scum” not “sleazebags”. I also said that it was my opinion that it is about half of the legal profession are scum. I did not claim that my opinion was “evidence”. And yes, I really don’t like the Santa Clara prosecutor’s office. I am biased against them and was before I became aware of the Field case (crooked prosecutor) about a year ago. And no, I don’t live in Santa Clara. The Field case is absolutely sickening. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/505 "2009-03-31T18:45:50Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I said about half, the 45 percent figure was a response to someone else suggesting that it was only a very small percentage and I suggested it was about 45 points higher. I used the word “scum” not “sleazebags”. I am happy to go with “about half” instead of “45 percent” and “scum” instead of “sleazebags.” Please substitute the appropriate verbiage. > [@](#): > > I did not claim that my opinion was “evidence”. You offered these Santa Clara cases as evidence to support your opinion, I believe. > [@](#): > > And yes, I really don’t like the Santa Clara prosecutor’s office. I am biased against them and was before I became aware of the Field case (crooked prosecutor) about a year ago. And no, I don’t live in Santa Clara. The Field case is absolutely sickening. Okay, now I think I’m biased against the Santa Clara prosecutor’s office too. What does this teach us? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/506 "2009-03-31T18:52:05Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Okay, now I think I’m biased against the Santa Clara prosecutor’s office too. What does this teach us? That you should avoid being accused of a crime in Santa Clara County. Oh, and that about half of the attorneys in this country apparently work for the Santa Clara prosecutor’s office. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/507 "2009-03-31T19:10:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That you should avoid being accused of a crime in Santa Clara County. Oh, and that about half of the attorneys in this country apparently work for the Santa Clara prosecutor’s office. 45%, I hear. Damn crime-infested college towns. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/508 "2009-03-31T19:16:51Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > You offered these Santa Clara cases as evidence to support your opinion, I believe. I offered it as an example. But a comparison of two cases does not constitute nationwide data of “scum” attorneys, nor did is say that it did. I’ve been pretty clear from the get go that this is my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/509 "2009-03-31T19:18:44Z")
I thought it would take a lot to make Rand Rover look better. Zoe and The Second Stone are giving it the old college try, though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/510 "2009-03-31T19:22:24Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I thought it would take a lot to make Rand Rover look better. Zoe and The Second Stone are giving it the old college try, though. Well, don’t be shy about taking credit yourself. And for the record, I never said RR wasn’t a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/511 "2009-03-31T19:23:43Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’ve been pretty clear from the get go that this is my opinion. In my opinion, slandering a whole bunch of people without evidence isn’t a very nice thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/512 "2009-03-31T19:43:53Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Well, don’t be shy about taking credit yourself. And for the record, I never said RR wasn’t a lawyer. I’d be happy to take credit! Uh, what am I taking credit for? And when did I say you said RR wasn’t a lawyer? You’re just being such a dick that other dicks pale in comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/513 "2009-03-31T19:44:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In my opinion, slandering a whole bunch of people without evidence isn’t a very nice thing to do. Do you ever form an opinion based on your overall experience in life? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/514 "2009-03-31T19:49:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Do you ever form an opinion based on your overall experience in life? Sure. I don’t think I ever condemned an entire group of people because a few members of that group broke the law, though. If I did, I probably shouldn’t have. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/515 "2009-03-31T19:51:33Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sure. I don’t think I ever condemned an entire group of people because a few members of that group broke the law, though. If I did, I probably shouldn’t have. OK, but it would be theoretically possible for you to form an opinion of an “entire group of people” if your experience was enough to constitute a representative sample. Even though you couldn’t point to any “evidence” if challenged on it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/516 "2009-03-31T19:55:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, but it would be theoretically possible for you to form an opinion of an “entire group of people” if your experience was enough to constitute a representative sample. Even though you couldn’t point to any “evidence” if challenged on it. Sure I could…I could point to the experiences that have led me to develop my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/517 "2009-03-31T19:58:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Yet you did what you did. You “bothered” to tell a complete stranger expressing a general opinion on lawyers “fuck you”. You “bothered” to call an entire group of people scum who deserve to be heaped with scorn. That’s a textbook definition of prejudice. Like any prejudiced person, you’re going to have a few examples to support your bias, but overall, you are making a sweeping generalization about an entire class of people. If one of those people says “fuck you” back, well, you did kind of ask for it. > [@](#): > > And I don’t have any respect for someone whose introduction to another person is “fuck you and the horse you rode in on”. It is exactly the kind of snotty superior attitude I was writing about. Is it not faintly possible that Jodi, her first introduction to you being one where you called her scum, felt that you were displaying a snotty, superior attitude? Therefore, she responded in kind. I’m not sure how you can see yourself as the wronged party here. > [@](#): > > If I say something stupid, then it can be disregarded. Oh, OK then. Later. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/518 "2009-03-31T20:00:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, but it would be theoretically possible for you to form an opinion of an “entire group of people” if your experience was enough to constitute a representative sample. Even though you couldn’t point to any “evidence” if challenged on it. Sure it would be theoretically possible. People do it all the time, and it’s fucking stupid. Racists, in particular, love this line of “reasoning”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/519 "2009-03-31T20:00:10Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sure. I don’t think I ever condemned an entire group of people because a few members of that group broke the law, though. If I did, I probably shouldn’t have. I have. Fuckin’ Carpathians… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739/520 "2009-03-31T20:01:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sure I could…I could point to the experiences that have led me to develop my opinion. And then, if it turns out one’s experiences don’t justify sweeping generalizations, one could retreat from or rethink that opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-rover-red-rover-send-rand-rover-over/490739.md?page=27)