# Red state liberals who moved to a free state: did it make you happier? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 26, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172 "2017-07-26T15:55:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/41 "2017-07-28T01:02:16Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > And in a blue state, you have to put up with pie-in-the-sky laws about gun control, passed by people who are inexplicably convinced that the best way to prevent gun violence is to make it illegal to protect one’s person and property. This is why I mentioned what I did upthread. Michigan is nominally blue state, except in the last election. Internally we’re a bit conservative, and we have fairly liberal gun laws, given the restrictions of the federal government. For example, we’re a shall-issue state when it comes to concealed carry. Open carry is allowed without special permission. National politics are not the same as local politics, and assigning character to an entire state based on a winner-take-all presidential election doesn’t really do justice to _any_ state. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/42 "2017-07-28T01:11:52Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You left out the part where all of this leads to a higher quality of life, red state America is pretty much the third world. :dubious:. 😕 Okaaaaaay. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/43 "2017-07-28T01:14:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’m not someone who has moved. I’m in a red state. When I’ve considered moving, I always realized that I’m not actually interested in living in an urban environment. I’ve enjoyed spending some time in bigger cities, but I’ve always been relieved to come back and get away from it all. > > Is there any place that’s both liberal but sparsely populated? Are there any people who regretted being around so many people and would rather be back in the rural areas? Either a college town or new england (well, Vermont. Rural NH or ME isn’t really that good but rural VT is probably fine for you). In most blue state, if you look at the political maps i is basically blue in the urban areas, red in the rural areas. Vermont and MA are both blue pretty much everywhere, urban and rural. However I assume Vermont has more of a liberal vibe than MA, which can be more racist. Thats my assumption. > **[2016 United States presidential election in Vermont](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Vermont,_2016#/media/File:United_States_presidential_election_in_Vermont,_2016.svg)** > > Clinton > Trump > **[2016 United States presidential election in Massachusetts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Massachusetts,_2016#/media/File:United_States_presidential_election_in_Massachusetts,_2016.svg)** > > Clinton > Trump > Tie Compare that to California. > **[2016 United States presidential election in California](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_California,_2016#/media/File:United_States_presidential_election_in_California,_2016.svg)** > > Clinton > Trump ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/44 "2017-07-28T01:19:46Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > And in a blue state, you have to put up with pie-in-the-sky laws about gun control, passed by people who are inexplicably convinced that the best way to prevent gun violence is to make it illegal to protect one’s person and property. > > And then there are all the laws from liberals regulating how people are allowed to live their personal lives – seat belt laws; helmet laws; restrictions on what people can do with their own property; putting the welfare of some mouse/bird/fish above the welfare of humans; etc, etc. To a lot of liberals, the minor inconveniences of gun control or having to pay a deposit when buying cans of soda is worth it to live in a state that doesn’t think climate change is a myth but creationism is a science. Or where people leave you shaking your head at how brainwashed and misinformed they are about civics. Or where people pick terrible ideas that are proven by science to not work or make the problem worse (like abstinence only, or opposing needle sharing) because they’d rather not face reality and would rather pick a terrible idea that makes them feel good but makes problems worse. Living in a blue state at least makes you feel like you are living somewhere where people are grounded in reality and want to use reality to solve important problems. Many red states make you feel like people would rather have superstition and feel good solutions and they can’t distinguish real problems from fake problems. To an outsider looking in, red state america is orwellian in their disconnection from reality. That doesn’t even touch on all the prejudice you can face if you aren’t an insider (If you aren’t a cishet white male christian). It really does wear you down if you don’t agree with it seeing it happen daily. I’m not trying to denounce people who disagree with me, but it does feel like that and it wears you down. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/45 "2017-07-28T02:19:46Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > :dubious:. 😕 > > Okaaaaaay. Pretty much. Red states are much more dependent on federal tax dollars and have much worse quality of life indicators.[The red and the black](http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/08/americas-fiscal-union) I happen to be in the third world right now for work and with all the guns and camo, I feel like I’m at in Trumpland. **Wesley** , I’d say that for a lot of liberals, gun control isn’t an inconvenience, but another sign that we are living in a community with reasonable, fact based public policies. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/46 "2017-07-28T03:02:15Z")
My suburb in Minnesota has a serious amount of services and parks that I’m quite sure wouldn’t exist in a red state. There’s a 2,000 acre county park just down the road, partly in my 63,000 pop suburb and partly in the adjacent 52,000 pop suburb. We have about three dozen parks, small lakes managed for panfishing, a public ice rink (mainly for school teams, but can also be reserved) and a waterpark. We also have top notch snow removal in winter and a decent police department not staffed with twitchy assholes. Hell, we have a county magazine that comes out twice a year filled with classes of all kinds that you can take, for different ages, and there’s even a Father-Daughter Princess/Fairy ball in the winter. I have zero issues with paying my taxes for these kinds of services. This is a great place to live. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/47 "2017-07-28T07:17:36Z")
I’m pretty disinterested in gun control issues in general - strategically, it probably makes more sense for the Democrats to drop the issue entirely, if they want to do better electorally. But if California’s gun laws are keeping conservatives out of the state, I’m all for them. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/48 "2017-07-28T07:32:59Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > And then there are all the laws from liberals regulating how people are allowed to live their personal lives – seat belt laws; helmet laws; restrictions on what people can do with their own property; putting the welfare of some mouse/bird/fish above the welfare of humans; etc, etc. Yes, [seat belt laws](http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/safetybeltuse/mapbeltenforcement) are one of the hallmarks of blue states. Hillary’s 534-4 victory in the electoral college was something to behold. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/49 "2017-07-28T07:34:50Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > you get to use the word “Free” anyway you want to but the rest of us don’t have to agree with you. > > in libertarian land poor people can be FREE not to have health insurance. lucky people! > > and a corporation can be FREE to pollute the air and water all they want. yay! Sounds like a strawman. But **Orwell’s** states sound like he means “libertarian” attitudes, not literally some ultra-orthodox definition of libertarian. For example, Vermont is very, very, blue. But their attitudes don’t necessarily match the national Democratic party, nor the traditional liberal definition. Similarly, Alaska legalized marijuana while California shot it down several times until other states dipped their toes in without any problems. > [@AK84](#): > > Has it become that bad? I remember when _Borat_ came out, you wrote a very pissed off (and informative) post about how the film misrepresented Alabama. “Alabama: better than Mississippi”. Of course, that’s every state’s motto. > [@madmonk28](#): > > Pretty much. Red states are much more dependent on federal tax dollars and have much worse quality of life indicators.[http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/08/americas-fiscal-union](http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/08/americas-fiscal-union) > > I happen to be in the third world right now for work and with all the guns and camo, I feel like I’m at in Trumpland. > > **Wesley** , I’d say that for a lot of liberals, gun control isn’t an inconvenience, but another sign that we are living in a community with reasonable, fact based public policies. This is poor statistical evidence if that is your evidence (and it doesn’t appear that the cite is trying to make the same argument). Red states tend to be more rural, and that means more dependent on tax dollars. Delaware is full of financial companies. The cite includes blue New Mexico, Vermont, Maryland, and Oregon (but go to eastern Oregon) among the “leeches.” Not to mention Puerto Rico. And red Texas, Arkansas, and Georgia among the contributors. Not all statistics fit stereotypes. Objectively bad Mississippi has the #1 vaccine rate. Crunchy Colorado is #50. Not the right thread for the rest of that. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/50 "2017-07-28T10:56:08Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Sounds like a strawman. No, she’s pretty much quoting the Republican leadership. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/51 "2017-07-28T11:21:45Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You left out the part where all of this leads to a higher quality of life, red state America is pretty much the third world. I’m not a red state guy but this is not true at all - there are many places in red state America that are doing fine. Don’t assume that all of red state America is some tornado bait trailer park in rural Arkansas. This is one of the biggest misunderstandings that liberals have about conservatives (and Trump voters) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/52 "2017-07-28T11:32:07Z")
As for the OP, I am a recovering libertarianish center-right conservative who has become a center-left to solid progressive over the years. I grew up in red state America - I get red states. I just don’t have as much in common with them in anymore. I lived on the West Coast (CA and OR) for about 7 years and really felt that this was my spiritual home (if it makes sense). Moved to the Rust Belt region a few years ago and happen to live in a liberal island within what’s generally a much more conservative region. In the city, I feel like not much is different in terms of people I meet and attitudes they have, but conservative America is a much closer drive than it used to be. My wife and I sometimes think ahead to the future and consider retirement and places to move to. She’s asked me if I could ever live in the South again and I’m not sure that I could, though I wouldn’t rule it out entirely. I’m not really one to start political discussions on the street anyway so it’s not like I’d be sticking my chin out, holding up Trump sucks placards, and daring a conservative to take a swing at me. But being able to relate to people like your neighbors and coworkers…that does matter. I don’t think I’d be able to stomach hearing people’s conspiracy theories about how healthcare reform is an attempt to turn the country into a totalitarian state, especially when I know that conservatives are far more sympathetic to authoritarianism than I am. And like Chimera pointed out, there are some things that progressive governments are willing to do for their communities that just make them more livable. I’d rather live in a state that sees more value in educating people and giving them good housing and medical care, as opposed to just locking them up. I’d rather live in a community that funds higher education and job training over new sports stadiums for pro teams that might leave in 10 years anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/53 "2017-07-28T16:16:33Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > What you want is a small ultra-liberal college town like Grinnell or Oberlin. Of course those are red or at best purple states. Characterizing Grinnell, Iowa as “ultra-liberal” is a stretch. Town-gown tensions were evident when I was there decades ago, and matters apparently haven’t changed much. For instance, in 2016 only one of four election districts in the town went for Clinton (overall Grinnell voted for Trump, but very narrowly because of the overwhelming Clinton sentiment in that one district, where I suspect a lot of faculty live). The county (Poweshiek) itself went for Trump as well. As for Oberlin, you’d be on a small blue island, seeing that the surrounding county (Lorain) also went for Trump. The OP may be misstated, in that what discontented red state liberals might really want is to assure themselves of living in a “free” large city on the East or West coasts, which are bound to be sanctuaries for the unhappy Left. As for parks, the Twin Cities indeed are generally rated highly for their park system. So is Cincinnati, which is not exactly a blue bastion and a place I wouldn’t want to live based on other factors. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/54 "2017-07-28T16:57:26Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > My suburb in Minnesota has a serious amount of services and parks that I’m quite sure wouldn’t exist in a red state. There’s a 2,000 acre county park just down the road, partly in my 63,000 pop suburb and partly in the adjacent 52,000 pop suburb. We have about three dozen parks, small lakes managed for panfishing, a public ice rink (mainly for school teams, but can also be reserved) and a waterpark. We also have top notch snow removal in winter and a decent police department not staffed with twitchy assholes. Hell, we have a county magazine that comes out twice a year filled with classes of all kinds that you can take, for different ages, and there’s even a Father-Daughter Princess/Fairy ball in the winter. > > I have zero issues with paying my taxes for these kinds of services. This is a great place to live. Presumably this “twitchy asshole” is from a different Minnesota town? [America Has Finally Found Its 'Perfect Victim' Of A Police Shooting | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/america-has-finally-found-its-perfect-victim-of-a-police-shooting_us_5978ef3ce4b0da64e8760c0b) It’s weird that “free” or bubble dwelling America thinks states like Montana, Wyoming, Florida, etc. don’t have parks. I’ve lived in so-called red and so-called blue states. They each have their good points and bad points. Chicagoland was eye opening though. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/55 "2017-07-28T17:00:29Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Presumably this “twitchy asshole” is from a different Minnesota town? [America Has Finally Found Its 'Perfect Victim' Of A Police Shooting | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/america-has-finally-found-its-perfect-victim-of-a-police-shooting_us_5978ef3ce4b0da64e8760c0b) > > It’s weird that “free” or bubble dwelling America thinks states like Montana, Wyoming, Florida, etc. don’t have parks. 1\> I live in a suburb and stated as much. So your comment is unnecessary. 2\> I didn’t say you didn’t. I pointed out that we have a LOT of them and that they aren’t just land with a bench, but have things going on there. You’re trying too hard to be offended. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/56 "2017-07-28T17:06:15Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > 1\> I live in a suburb and stated as much. So your comment is unnecessary. > 2\> I didn’t say you didn’t. I pointed out that we have a LOT of them and that they aren’t just land with a bench, but have things going on there. > > You’re trying too hard to be offended. I’m not offended. I just think there is a bit of unnecessary and even worse, inaccurate, stereotyping in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/57 "2017-07-28T17:40:00Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > Moving from TN to NY was the best move I ever made. Trying to date was a nightmare in TN. It was hard in NY because I was 30 with almost no dating experience, but I never went more than a few months without a date after moving. After a couple of years I met my wife. I think I’d be a bitter old man if I hadn’t moved. Probably going to Nashville or Memhis would have worked, but there were no jobs there for me. Tennessee is even worse now then it was then; but living in Nashville does make a big difference - probably just like living in any blue city in a red desert (Austin comes to mind). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/58 "2017-07-28T17:47:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s weird that “free” or bubble dwelling America thinks states like Montana, Wyoming, Florida, etc. don’t have parks. > [@octopus](#): > > I’m not offended. I just think there is a bit of unnecessary and even worse, inaccurate, stereotyping in this thread. Yeah, I get that, the only question is, is why are you writing unnecessary and in_n_accurate stereotypes? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/59 "2017-07-28T18:55:11Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > It’s not the official enforcement that’s the issue. The empowered citizens who think they have the right now to check and enforce bathroom laws. It wasn’t the citizens so much. It was more of a pissing contest between the past governor McCrory and Charlotte, the city in which he was once mayor. The issue has largely died. Not everything is a trample on minority rights. Sometimes it’s just stupid political saber banging. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172/60 "2017-07-28T19:14:22Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > It wasn’t the citizens so much. It was more of a pissing contest between the past governor McCrory and Charlotte, the city in which he was once mayor. The issue has largely died. Not everything is a trample on minority rights. Sometimes it’s just stupid political saber banging. Well, I have a lot of family in NC who saw it differently than you are describing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/red-state-liberals-who-moved-to-a-free-state-did-it-make-you-happier/792172.md?page=4)