# Redeemed by the Dark Christ of Flight 123 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698 "2005-12-30T07:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/41 "2005-12-31T19:11:17Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Who says that Jesus fills one’s heart with sunshine, lollipops and rainbows? Somehow, I dont’ think that 's in the New Testament. No, it’s the Jesus of Christian Rock and a lot of churches these days. You’re saved, Jesus fills your heart with love and peace, he extends a helping hand all the time, and you go out to perpetuate the meme. The real Jesus (readable by anyone who actually picks up the NT and takes it seriously) was a lot tougher and a lot deeper. > [@](#): > > How does the suffering of other’s lead to YOUR redemption? IMS, only one person has claimed redemption for others through his death–Jesus. Because you learn compassion and a greater appreciation of Life through their suffering. The Dark Christ is the metaphorical personification of that lesson. > [@](#): > > I agree that personal suffering can lead to personal redemption or growth or change-but watching my brother suffer, while it stirs compassion in me, does not lead to MY redemption. Hopefully, it will lead to some practical help on my part! My view of redeption is transcending selfish human nature to become a true light to others. > [@](#): > > Just MO, but the term the “dark Christ” seems intended to get a rise from people. No, it was the term I thought appropriate to describe my experience; I thought it up before I posted about it here. > [@](#): > > If you are alluding to the complexities of Christ’s teachings, then say so, please. I am going to be with odds with posters here who think of Christ as a literal person, whereas I see him as a powerful mythical figure. One great thing about myths is that we can build on them to help ourselves and others. > [@](#): > > Christ preached to love one another–simple, but not easy. It leads to all sorts of mess in life and alot of it people would rather do without–perhaps that is the lollipops reference. Nonetheless, the call is to love one another–Christ is not to blame if we humans cannot meet the standard. Right, and the Dark Christ calls us to love one another as well; his MO is not parables or miricles but showing us the starker realities of Life. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/42 "2005-12-31T19:14:30Z")
Brilliant, **mswas** , brilliant. You helped me understand my own thought/spirit process better. This is what I mean by building on myth and metaphor to help each other. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/43 "2005-12-31T19:22:23Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Ah, but it is precisely _because_ religion is metaphorical that it makes a difference. Indeed so. However, when, at any time, we take our metaphor-of-choice as literal truth, we place ourselves open to the committing of many forms of brutality, including trying to kill each other, and on down the line. > [@Aeschines](#): > > I don’t understand the hostility in your tone. I seem to have really struck a nerve. Easy enough to do around here. And when you have, watch out for the brutal repurcussions! > [@Aeschines](#): > > Fine, you’re better than I am; many are. You don’t require the ministrations of the Dark Christ to set you straight now and then. Good for you, but where is your compassion for those who do need Him? The “Dark Christ” sounds like a valuable teaching metaphor. But still a metaphor. As a wise man once told me, “Have no idols, for they will inevitably disappoint you.“ If the lessons of this metaphor teach you “compassion” for your fellow man, and/or increase you resolve to eschew what I call “Normal Human Sadism” (NHS), then so much the better for the world. > [@Aeschines](#): > > I think 9/11 permanently raised the spiritual consciousness of many people. It’s too bad that Bush took those energies and applied them to evil ends; but such is the way of evil leaders. The practical and the spiritual are inextricably intertwined. At the news of 9/11, my first reaction was along the lines of, “My God! The humanity!.” (You know, from the Hindenburg disaster.) Then I thought, “These people have figured out a way to really fuck with us, and with the rest of the world. How do we put a crimp in their style?” The answer is: commit war on their vile asses until they realize that the richest kid in the neighborhood is the one in charge. Oftentimes, it’s the biggest kid the neighborhood who calls the shots, but in this case, we’re both. My friend (and I do mean that), this is no time for empathy, except in the sense that by developing an understanding of how our enemy must feel helps us to defeat him. This is dog-eat-dog, man, in the grandest tradition of normal human history. > [@Aeschines](#): > > The teachings of the Dark Christ are one way to stay on track. Could be. Sure, why not? As for airline (not to mention zeppelin) disasters, that massive loss of life and the emotions that those who were detroyed must‘ve harbored, I couldn’t be more in agreement with your reaction, even 20 (or 68) years later. Hate to invoke Star Trek TOS again, but it’s like that episode when Spock has a sudden shock reaction to the massive loss of Vulcan lives. I guess my point is, Spock didn’t _need_ any Dark Christ to experience the appropriate emotions. Why should we? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/44 "2005-12-31T20:11:15Z")
**drmark2000:** Your enemies are mythical, we’ve lumped way too many people into the category of “The enemy” and our wars against them are self-serving. To put it simply, it’s a snipe hunt. As for needing the Dark Christ, Aeschines is putting a name to the impulse that Dr. Spock had. There is no reason for you to crap on the name he gives it, it’s a metaphor meant to help him express his idea. There is no reason for you not to use that metaphor other than a pointless power struggle. You are engaging Aeschines in discussion, so what is your opposition in trying to understand his metaphor? No one is asking you to worship an idol. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/45 "2005-12-31T20:11:21Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > Indeed so. However, when, at any time, we take our metaphor-of-choice as literal truth, we place ourselves open to the committing of many forms of brutality, including trying to kill each other, and on down the line. I agree 100%. That’s why I have emphasized that the Dark Christ is a metaphor. > [@](#): > > The “Dark Christ” sounds like a valuable teaching metaphor. But still a metaphor. As a wise man once told me, “Have no idols, for they will inevitably disappoint you.“ Agreement. > [@](#): > > If the lessons of this metaphor teach you “compassion” for your fellow man, and/or increase you resolve to eschew what I call “Normal Human Sadism” (NHS), then so much the better for the world. Yes. > [@](#): > > The practical and the spiritual are inextricably intertwined. At the news of 9/11, my first reaction was along the lines of, “My God! The humanity!.” (You know, from the Hindenburg disaster.) Then I thought, “These people have figured out a way to really fuck with us, and with the rest of the world. How do we put a crimp in their style?” Yeah, me too. Depressed and pissed. And Afganistan was the right thing to do. > [@](#): > > The answer is: commit war on their vile asses until they realize that the richest kid in the neighborhood is the one in charge. Oftentimes, it’s the biggest kid the neighborhood who calls the shots, but in this case, we’re both. But evil has used our correct impulses against us, as it always seeks to do. Beating up on Afganistan wasn’t satisfying enough–hey, there’s Iraq! Now we’ve gotten lots of Iraqis and Americans killed under the false pretenses of WMD and ties to Al Qaeda (the ultimate bogyman if ever there was one), heating the whole Islamic world up against us and helping raise the next generation of 9/11ers to repeat the cycle. With some good thrown in, such as the elimination of Baathism and democracy initiated or a simulacrum thereof. > [@](#): > > My friend (and I do mean that), this is no time for empathy, except in the sense that by developing an understanding of how our enemy must feel helps us to defeat him. > > This is dog-eat-dog, man, in the grandest tradition of normal human history. It is up to New Agers like myself to transcend that “normal” cycle of creation and destruction. > [@](#): > > I guess my point is, Spock didn’t _need_ any Dark Christ to experience the appropriate emotions. > > Why should we? I thought that Spock didn’t feel emotions anyway. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/46 "2005-12-31T20:13:53Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Brilliant, **mswas** , brilliant. > > You helped me understand my own thought/spirit process better. This is what I mean by building on myth and metaphor to help each other. Thank you! You’re welcome ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/47 "2005-12-31T20:15:49Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I thought that Spock didn’t feel emotions anyway. Spock was half human. He did feel emotions but had a hard time understanding them because of the pure vulcan logic. Erek ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/48 "2005-12-31T20:43:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **drmark2000:** Your enemies are mythical, we’ve lumped way too many people into the category of “The enemy” and our wars against them are self-serving. To put it simply, it’s a snipe hunt. Of course our own efforts are self-serving, and of course it is all a snipe hunt. However, the enemies, themselves, are certainly not mythical. The enemies own efforts are self-serving, and they are engaged in a snipe hunt. Who wins? The bigger and/or the richer of the two opponents. If that’s not how things should be, it sure is how it is. > [@mswas](#): > > As for needing the Dark Christ, Aeschines is putting a name to the impulse that Dr. Spock had. There is no reason for you to crap on the name he gives it, it’s a metaphor meant to help him express his idea. There is no reason for you not to use that metaphor other than a pointless power struggle. You are engaging Aeschines in discussion, so what is your opposition in trying to understand his metaphor? No one is asking you to worship an idol. That’s **Mr.** Spock, thank you very much. The academic/professional title of Doctor is reserved for those who have earned it through arduous coursework and some formal contribution to the research on a given topic, not just acting as First Officer on a Starship. Geez. I don’t “crap on” Aeschines, either. We have something of an understanding, he and I. Neither of us cowtows to the other. I know he gets it. Why don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/49 "2005-12-31T20:50:57Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > Of course our own efforts are self-serving, and of course it is all a snipe hunt. However, the enemies, themselves, are certainly not mythical. The enemies own efforts are self-serving, and they are engaged in a snipe hunt. Who wins? The bigger and/or the richer of the two opponents. If that’s not how things should be, it sure is how it is. Yes, but we are also our _own_ non-mythical enemy, shooting ourself in the foot. And the more we shoot ourself, the more we blame the Other, and the more we shoot. See WWI for an extremely large-scale example of how bad that can get. > [@](#): > > That’s **Mr.** Spock, thank you very much. The academic/professional title of Doctor is reserved for those who have earned it through arduous coursework and some formal contribution to the research on a given topic, not just acting as First Officer on a Starship. Geez. What? Spock doesn’t have a PhD?!🙂 > [@](#): > > I don’t “crap on” Aeschines, either. We have something of an understanding, he and I. Neither of us cowtows to the other. I think _all three_ of us have an understanding, which is what makes this an odd little dance, but I don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/50 "2005-12-31T20:57:35Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > It is up to New Agers like myself to transcend that “normal” cycle of creation and destruction. And so it shall be, in time. It’s just that it’s all evolving at such an excrutiatingly slow pace from the standpoint of those well ahead of the curve that we get impatient. I know I do. Not crazy about the moniker “New Agers.” Prefer “Age Olders.” ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/51 "2005-12-31T21:01:43Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > And so it shall be, in time. It’s just that it’s all evolving at such an excrutiatingly slow pace from the standpoint of those well ahead of the curve that we get impatient. I know I do. > > Not crazy about the moniker “New Agers.” Prefer “Age Olders.” Heh, Age Olders indeed. We are in fact the Main Line of spirituality, with monotheism, atheism, and other absolutisms mere Picean diversions. Good point about impatience. ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/52 "2005-12-31T21:14:05Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Yes, but we are also our _own_ non-mythical enemy, shooting ourself in the foot. And the more we shoot ourself, the more we blame the Other, and the more we shoot. See WWI for an extremely large-scale example of how bad that can get. This one could, and may very well, get just as bad, and worse. That’s what we’ve ALL bought ourselves for persistently acting in accordance with pure, species instinct, rather than allowing the higher values, of which we are all conscious, impel us. > [@Aeschines](#): > > What? Spock doesn’t have a PhD?!🙂 Nah. In fact, I heard a rumor that his old man (Sarek) bought him into Starfleet Academy, and even though he was only about average in performance, they graduated him with various honors just to show that they weren’t prejudiced against humanoids with a distinctly satanic appearance. He barely squeaked by with his Bachelor’s. I think _all three_ of us have an understanding, which is what makes this an odd little dance, but I don’t mind. [/QUOTE] Okay, I could be a little more conciliatory. I do want us all to be friends. Or _do_ I? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/53 "2005-12-31T22:00:22Z")
**MrMark2000** Sorry if I spoke too hastily about you crapping on Aeschines. I’m glad the two you have an understanding. I certainly wasn’t privy to it. I definitely have AN understanding, but not necessarily THAT one. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/54 "2005-12-31T22:02:42Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > This one could, and may very well, get just as bad, and worse. That’s what we’ve ALL bought ourselves for persistently acting in accordance with pure, species instinct, rather than allowing the higher values, of which we are all conscious, impel us. Yes, we agree. I thought you were advocating the conflict to some rather high degree, however. Did I misinterpret? > [@](#): > > Nah. In fact, I heard a rumor that his old man (Sarek) bought him into Starfleet Academy, and even though he was only about average in performance, they graduated him with various honors just to show that they weren’t prejudiced against humanoids with a distinctly satanic appearance. He barely squeaked by with his Bachelor’s. Shame on Spock. He had logic but not true erudition, apparently. > [@](#): > > Okay, I could be a little more conciliatory. I do want us all to be friends. Or _do_ I? You do, do, do! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/55 "2005-12-31T22:06:11Z")
**drmark2000** Regarding our enemies. The problem with this particular issue, is that I don’t feel that their demands are unreasonable. I agree that we should not be favoring Saudi Arabia they way that we do, and I think that the impulse to protect our manhood shouldn’t be applied at a nation-state level. So many people I’ve heard don’t want to pull out of Iraq for fearing that they’ll think we are weak. I don’t see that as happening, I think the fact that we can crush a nation in a couple of weeks is something that they’ll always take into consideration. But for too long we’ve been going with an orientalist mentality, and taking our needs and putting them above those of the people we conquer, and that just isn’t kosher. I don’t think we can crush them, they are like Hydra from Marvel comics. Erek ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/56 "2005-12-31T22:29:11Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Yes, we agree. I thought you were advocating the conflict to some rather high degree, however. Did I misinterpret? Not exactly. To clarify, I think that our Iraqi conflict matters to the very highest of degrees, but on the very lowest of levels. Nevertheless, the very lowest of levels rules. That’s what democracy is all about! > [@Aeschines](#): > > Shame on Spock. He had logic but not true erudition, apparently. Oh, he could express himself well enough, even in a counter-logical manner. For instance, “Logic is a ring of pretty flowers, that smell _bad_.” Lines like that got Mudd’s androids tilting their heads and shutting off, en masse. Admirably clever. It was all the politics behind his life that pissed me off. > [@Aeschines](#): > > You do, do, do! I may, may, may! At least I might, One day. First decent poem in a dozen years. ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/57 "2005-12-31T22:50:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > …[our enemies] are like Hydra from Marvel comics. Now, we digress considerably from the OP, and that’s okay with me. It may not be okay with the mods and some others, but it’s okay with me. Personally, I like the appearance of a pinwheel in a strong wind. Hydra… hmmmmm. I read plenty of comics in my youth, but gravitated more toward the DC supernatural-themed ones (House of Mystery; Tales of the Unexpected), than toward the superheros versus the nefarious enemies ones. Lacking a Wiki search, the only hydra with which I’m familiar is the one from Greek myths, which Hercules slew. There are varying accounts of how he accomplished this, but the one most applicable to our current situation would seem the one in which Hercules (the US Government) enlists the aid and inspiration of his nephew (the US Armed Forces), to slice off the hydra’s heads and cauterize the wounds so the heads can’t grow back. I’m not sayin’ it’s pretty, and I’m not sayin’ it’s right. But if we’re going to do it, we may as well do it conclusively. Until we have to go after the next hydra… ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/58 "2005-12-31T22:59:15Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > Not exactly. To clarify, I think that our Iraqi conflict matters to the very highest of degrees, but on the very lowest of levels. Would that lowest of levels happen to be Bush’s brain?! > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, the very lowest of levels rules. That’s what democracy is all about! Hmm, is that what they call this flavor? I’d prefer “Rocky Road,” actually. > [@](#): > > First decent poem in a dozen years. No, there was also the Oyster Shell Limerick in the Pit! ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/59 "2005-12-31T23:27:02Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Would that lowest of levels happen to be Bush’s brain?! Okay, I’ll refer to Bush from here on in as “King of the Scumbags,” or KOTS, for short. But king he is. Of the scumbags. But still king. KOTS rules the scum pool. He is far more powerful scum than the rest of the scum. He must ensure the predominance of the scum beneath him in order to ensure his own predominance over them. So, that’s what he does. This is how scum behaves, to the benefit of scum. It cannot be otherwise. > [@Aeschines](#): > > No, there was also the Oyster Shell Limerick in the Pit! I guess since I _deliberately_ wrote that one bad, it could count as “decent.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698/60 "2005-12-31T23:31:19Z")
Hydra was a terrorist organization that was basically like the mythical beast. George W Bush is Bob from Church of the Subgenius. We were playing a game of illuminati the other day and we were playing double handed where each of us played two illuminati groups, and my friend was playing the UFOs and Church of the Subgenius, and it hit me that he was playing the Bush family. Daddy Bush is the UFOs and the Son is Bob from Church of the Subgenius. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redeemed-by-the-dark-christ-of-flight-123/337698.md?page=4)