# Redesigning the United States Government from the ground up - What would a "sensible" government structure look like for America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2024, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234 "2024-08-04T15:03:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/21 "2024-08-04T21:00:50Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Direct election of President with rank-choice or something similar. > > Debt ceiling automatically increased in line with budget. That is, if Congress and President budget something and Revenues aren’t there, then borrowing doesn’t need separate approval. > > Stronger ethics rules for all branches of government. > > Independent bodies to draw Congressional and state legislature districts. All good except ranked choice. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/22 "2024-08-04T21:02:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > 3/4 Anything requiring this ratio is impossible in the US of today. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/23 "2024-08-04T21:11:32Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > corporations are not people and do not have the rights of citizens The laws that empower profit-seeking organizations also empower nonprofit organizations. ACLU NAACP AFL-CIO The Democratic National Committee are all legal persons that have the same rights as any corporation, and need those rights in order to function. In the 2020 presidential primaries, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders both had campaign organizations that operated as legal persons. Are you sure you want to disempower them all? ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/24 "2024-08-04T21:33:30Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Is there any reason for Montana and Wyoming to be seperate states? Why not Wyomontana, or WyTana? I’d be more inclined to combine Wyoming and Idaho, if only to get rid of the [Zone of Death](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_Death_(Yellowstone)). ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/25 "2024-08-04T22:52:35Z")
Nevermind ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/26 "2024-08-04T23:19:36Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Having administrative divisions in no way implies a country has a federal government. Consider, e.g., France. I thought one of the premises of the OP is that there would be no autonomous “states”. I don’t explicitly rule out autonomous states, that’s just an option to consider. > [@bump](#): > > I’m assuming from your username, that you’re not American, and aren’t up on how states were originally formed. You are assuming incorrectly. I am an American and know the basis of American history. My point is that the current structure and organization of the country is an artifact of many numerous events that do not necessarily reflect the needs of modern 21st Century America. I wish to propose that none of these specific results is off limits for consideration if it leads to a modern America that functions better. > [@Aeschines](#): > > I think one key question is, **What are the boundaries of this thought experiment?** > > - Do we go for absolute global best practices, and perhaps go with a parliamentary system with a prime minister (which I personally am not thrilled with, but some might consider it best). Or do we build on what Americans are familiar with right now and stick with a president? > - Do we stick with global best practices, or do we try to create a better government than any that currently exists? For this thread, we are not limited to the system Americans know best. A parliamentary system is a viable answer, but it has to be justified against why the changes work better. If you can devise something completely new, I’m open to that, too. Obviously that’s harder. > [@Aeschines](#): > > Anything requiring this ratio is impossible in the US of today. So? This thread is about what we would like to work, especially after we fix the country. > [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > I’d be more inclined to combine Wyoming and Idaho, if only to get rid of the [Zone of Death](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_Death_(Yellowstone)). Obviously that is a target for fixing in some manner. That’s a small deal when rebuilding the government as a whole. > [@mbh](#): > > The Democratic National Committee > are all legal persons that have the same rights as any corporation, and need those rights in order to function. I think there’s a balance between saying a corporation or entity can function as an individual for the purposes of contracts and financial obligations, and them being persons with full rights. I mean, you can’t throw a corporation in jail, so obviously there is a distinction. I think everyone opposed to Citizen’s United would be happy with the limits equally applied to the DNC or Dem PACs. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/27 "2024-08-04T23:20:37Z")
Related (2022): > [@Can we ever create a government that works well?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-ever-create-a-government-that-works-well/977280/1): > > I was just thinking about how all countries (or governments thereof) seem to think that their government is so fine that everyone else on the planet should use it. There’s China that continues to drool over Taiwan. There is Russia, 'nuff said. There is democracy that is trying to do it (mostly) in a slightly different manner, something more similar to cheerleading. > > I am not terribly impressed with any of them. Yes, democracy has the edge but what a mess America has made of it. The next trend seems that it will be lie your way into office. Well, I don’t want to derail this discussion too much by ranting, so I’ll get to the point. > > Can SDMB create a better form of government? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/28 "2024-08-04T23:25:53Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > ACLU > NAACP > AFL-CIO > The Democratic National Committee > are all legal persons that have the same rights as any corporation, and need those rights in order to function. Do they? Corporations existed in the USA long before court decisions decided they were persons. Corporate law therefore can be designed to allow them to function without requiring them to be persons. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/29 "2024-08-04T23:29:55Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > why are there North _and_ South Dakota? Do we really need two? The Dakotas were split to give Republicans an extra two seats in the Senate. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/30 "2024-08-04T23:34:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The Dakotas were split to give Republicans an extra two seats in the Senate To be fair, that was in 1889, less than 25 years after Lincoln was in the White House. You know, when the Republican party was the sane one. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/31 "2024-08-05T00:44:09Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Corporations existed in the USA long before court decisions decided they were persons. There is a long history of corporate personhood- [Corporate personhood - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood#:~:text=Legislation%20in%20the%20United%20States,-See%20also%3A%20Creature&text=For%20example%2C%20a%20corporation%20may,the%20corporation's%20debts%20and%20damages). Also, being a “person” takes away protections- _This federal statute has many consequences. For example, a corporation may enter contracts,[[19]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood#cite_note-Torres-Spelliscy_2017_i763-19) sue and be sued,[[20]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood#cite_note-School_2023_g402-20) and be held liable under both civil and criminal law._ And there was no issues since at least 1886, until Citizens United. I dont think people have any real issues with Corporate personhood, it is that last decision that people hate. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/32 "2024-08-05T01:48:27Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Having administrative divisions in no way implies a country has a federal government. Consider, e.g., France. I thought one of the premises of the OP is that there would be no autonomous “states”. Call them what you will, configure them as you will, let them be as innocuous as you will. My main point in the first part of my post is that I believe there still needs to be a way for the interests of the under-populated regions of the country to be represented, along with the interests of the most populous areas, in law-making. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/33 "2024-08-05T03:20:40Z")
If there are regions, that implies there is at least some regional administration responsible for taking care of local business. And, if we are talking about some form of democracy, citizens anywhere can vote, and we can expect everyone to complain _their_ interests are not being adequately represented, but things are still too vague to say whether or not they will have a legitimate beef. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/34 "2024-08-05T03:40:15Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > I personally consider federalism to be one of the great innovations of the United States. Absolutely! One of the concerns expressed at Philadelphia in the Convention was whether it was possible to govern a country the size of the US (the 13 colonies, which were huge compared to many countries in Europe at the time), by a democratic/republican government. There was a widespread view amongst some contemporary political thinkers that only a monarchy or oligarchy could govern a country that size. The US federal model proved that those thinkers were wrong; federalism combined with republicanism could work. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/35 "2024-08-05T03:44:16Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > That seems like a sound principle - assign authority to the lowest common level, or something. That is the subsidiarity principle, which underlies most federations, although with some tweaks: > **[Subsidiarity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity)** > > Subsidiarity is a principle of social organization that holds that social and political issues should be dealt with at the most immediate or local level that is consistent with their resolution. The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as "the principle that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed at a more local level". The concept is applicable in the fields of government, political science, neuropsychology, cyber... > **[The principle of subsidiarity | Fact Sheets on the European Union | European...](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/7/the-principle-of-subsidiarity)** > > Read about the principle of subsidiarity. Fact Sheets provide an overview of European integration and the role of the European Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/36 "2024-08-05T11:14:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The Dakotas were split to give Republicans an extra two seats in the Senate. Sorry, that was meant as a joke. But it demonstrates my point. The political motivations for making 2 states had nothing to do with geography or any real limit on size. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Because the sizes would be, at least potentially, unwieldy? Are you suggesting changes like these only because of the sparse population? If size is an issue, explain Texas, or California, or Alaska. I’m saying states could be repartitioned and resized to fit modem needs or a more sensible division. Two sparsely populated adjacent states with similar populations and geography could be one state. Texas could be partitioned into two or more states. Is there really a connection between El Paso and Houston? Is there a reason the panhandle couldn’t be broken off and given to Oklahoma? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/37 "2024-08-05T14:58:58Z")
> **Irishman** wrote: If size is an issue, explain Texas, or California, or Alaska. […] Is there really a connection between El Paso and Houston? > **The answer, for Texas and California, is the legacy of slavery** > > Texas was an independent nation encompassing El Paso and Houston when it joined the United States. Neither city played a part in the Texan Revolution (El Paso being ceded by general Santa Anna but otherwise playing no part in the war; and Houston being founded after the war). But Texan-Americans aggressively settled El Paso to get in on the Santa Fe trade, and Houston was named the temporary capital of the new nation. Texas claimed much larger borders, encompassing like half of the great plains, and they waged war against the Native Americans who actually lived there. It was Texas’s size and integrity, and the will of Texan-Americans, which largely drove United States to initiate the Mexican-American war. > > Texas was admitted as a state in 1845 after Sam Houston threatened to join the UK (and thus ban slavery, a bluff). Following the conclusion of the Mexican-American war in 1848, Mexico ceded lands extending from Texas to Colorado to the Pacific. However, the reason El Paso was given to Texas and not New Mexico was because of the compromise of 1850, which among other things trimmed Texas’s northwest borders set California’s size. > > Regarding California, the population had exploded between 1848 and 1850 due to the gold rush (hence, the '49ers). Because it was not an organized territory the people had no representatives in government. So the people of California self-organized and its 1849 constitutional convention outlawed slavery. They applied for statehood. The big issue at the time was slavery and many in Congress _wanted_ to split California in two, as per the Missouri Compromise, with Southern California being a slave state. Having two new free states was out of the question. Against this background, the compromise of 1850 balanced free California with slave Texas, both with very large populations at the time and roughly their present borders, and organized the Utah and New Mexico territories without resolving the free/slave question there. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/38 "2024-08-05T15:09:00Z")
But this specific thread is supposed to ignore all that. > [@Irishman](#): > > I’m willing for this thread to consider partial restructures or all out blank slate. I don’t expect the ideas of this thread to ever be implemented. I just want to explore how we could restructure things, what a fairer system might look like. > > To begin with, a “minor” fix might be reorganizing what the states are, redrawing state lines, and even combining existing states or breaking up others or doing away with some states. > > If we aren’t tied to historical legacy, what would make sense? So I took the question to be, are there any reasons _aside_ from historical legacy to allow size to be an issue for the Dakotas but not for Texas or California (or Alaska)? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/39 "2024-08-05T15:15:08Z")
Size was never an issue for the Dakotas. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234/40 "2024-08-05T15:18:29Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So I took the question to be, are there any reasons _aside_ from historical legacy to allow size to be an issue for the Dakotas but not for Texas or California (or Alaska)? The opinions of the people who live there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redesigning-the-united-states-government-from-the-ground-up-what-would-a-sensible-government-structure-look-like-for-america/1005234.md?page=3)