# Redo Star Trek TOS with more guts **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 24, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593 "2011-04-24T22:26:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/141 "2011-04-28T15:18:54Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > (snip)\*and no human-alien hybrids!!! As Larry Niven said of Superman, he’s as likely to mate with a human female as he is to mate with an Ear of Corn. He was a farm boy in Kansas. They had to make their own fun, okay? Don’t be judgmental. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/142 "2011-04-28T15:24:28Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I’m not so sure; given carbon-based life using oxidation as a primary energy source (a pretty broad category of “life as we know it”), oxygen and nitrogen are pretty much the only plausible candidates for making up the bulk of the atmosphere. There may be issues that preclude breathing the same air in particular cases (seriously different oxygen percentages, different types of oxygen processing that involve inhaling or exhaling CO, etc), but it can’t really be ruled out in general. It would be reasonable to have a percentage of characters with some sort of visible appliance regardless. Even if all the Federation people were from similar worlds, there’s going to have to be some sort of setpoint for lighting intensity, wavelength, O2, nitrogen, gravity, temperature, and that setpoint won’t work for everybody. So you make some, or even most of the non-humans aboard the _Enterprise-StR_ have sunglasses, or nasal prongs for a bit of an O2 boost. It’s only a coincidence that the green skinned hottie is from a much colder world and finds it very warm here, and has to wander around in a bikini or posing pouch. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/143 "2011-04-28T15:42:59Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > It would be reasonable to have a percentage of characters with some sort of visible appliance regardless. Some blue ball headed guy…maybe Picard’s barber…had a mask he breathed through and exhaled blue mist. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/144 "2011-04-28T15:57:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In fact there are opposites which demonstrate the exact opposite. In “Amok Time,” “The Naked Time,” and “This Side of Paradise” Spock experiences emotions. He is shown as somewhat wistful about having to give them up, but he never says that now he understands what they are. A man struggling to suppress his love of alcohol is a far more interesting character than one who has no desire for it at all. > > Perhaps Abrams had the same misunderstanding as Cal, which is why he had Spock drop his stoicism so easily - something for which Abrams should be horsewhipped. Spock is in no way wistful about regaining his emotional control in "Amok Time."Losing it was humiliating, and the fact that he is vulnerable to the humiliation makes it worse. I think the most apt example is “This Side of Paradise” (assuming that’s the one with Jill Ireland, whom I mention mostly so I have an excuse to link to a picture of her in a [bikini](http://images.easyart.com/i/prints/rw/lg/2/3/Celebrity-Image-Jill-Ireland-237058.jpg). HIs control was ripped from him by an external force (the spores) and once he was freed of their influence, he wasn’t remotely tempted to go back. His attitude was like that of a man committed to his wife who is presented with a hot chick who wants to sleep with him just once and whom he trusts never to rat him out. Yes, that would be pleasant, but it’s not the sort of guy he wants to be. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/145 "2011-04-28T16:12:17Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Spock is in no way wistful about regaining his emotional control in "Amok Time."Losing it was humiliating, and the fact that he is vulnerable to the humiliation makes it worse. > > I think the most apt example is “This Side of Paradise” (assuming that’s the one with Jill Ireland, whom I mention mostly so I have an excuse to link to a picture of her in a [bikini](http://images.easyart.com/i/prints/rw/lg/2/3/Celebrity-Image-Jill-Ireland-237058.jpg). HIs control was ripped from him by an external force (the spores) and once he was freed of their influence, he wasn’t remotely tempted to go back. His attitude was like that of a man committed to his wife who is presented with a hot chick who wants to sleep with him just once and whom he trusts never to rat him out. Yes, that would be pleasant, but it’s not the sort of guy he wants to be. The Spock of the TOS years was one who fully embraced the “logic & non-emotion” part of Vulcan culture. In Star Trek V, the writers and producers introduced the idea that there were different viewpoints within Vulcan society. (Sybok embracing his emotions & passion.) The Star Trek: Enterprise TV series also dealt with these different viewpoints. The Vulcans of the TOS are not the same ones now being written into canon. ## In the TOS episode “Amok Time”, there is dialog to the effect (I can’t find direct quotes; weak google-fu): Spock: Have you ever wondered how Vulcans select their mate? Kirk: (exchanges glances with McCoy) I’ve always assumed that it was done… logically. ## Spock: No. It is not. I always read a lot of subtext into that glance. The Human Midshipman at the Academy probably make jokes about Vulcan love life, like they did on the Dope! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/146 "2011-04-28T16:38:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Some blue ball headed guy…maybe Picard’s barber…had a mask he breathed through and exhaled blue mist. The face-mask guys were [Benzites](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Benzite). Mot the barber was a [Bolian](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mot). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/147 "2011-04-28T16:46:37Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The face-mask guys were [Benzites](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Benzite). Mot the barber was a [Bolian](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mot). Hey, I said “maybe”! Thanks for fighting my ignorance. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/148 "2011-04-28T18:03:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure. Scotty is not captain material: not because he doesn’t have the skills, but because he wants to be an engineer. And he’s smarter than Kirk in this regard; he knows that if he does certain parts of his job too well, he’ll eventually be obliged to take a position he doesn’t want. Scotty isn’t “ship commander” captain material, that’s certain. What he IS, though, is material for captain rank as an engineer. Show some old-style navy traditions of engineers ignoring the extra stripe and grade, and visiting Starfleet admirals routinely addressing Capt. Scott as “Commodore.” (Navy people never EVER address anybody on a ship as “Captain” except the CO.) I fully agree that Scotty should not have been in the line of command. Eventually promote Sulu and make him full-on second officer. Make Riley a recurring character. Have the occasional “view from the gallery” episode featuring recurring petty officers. And Harcourt Fenton Mudd shows up once every season to incite more mischief. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/149 "2011-04-28T18:13:21Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Scotty isn’t “ship commander” captain material, that’s certain. What he IS, though, is material for captain rank as an engineer. Show some old-style navy traditions of engineers ignoring the extra stripe and grade, and visiting Starfleet admirals routinely addressing Capt. Scott as “Commodore.” (Navy people never EVER address anybody on a ship as “Captain” except the CO.) > > I fully agree that Scotty should not have been in the line of command. Eventually promote Sulu and make him full-on second officer. Make Riley a recurring character. Have the occasional “view from the gallery” episode featuring recurring petty officers. > > And Harcourt Fenton Mudd shows up once every season to incite more mischief. I have to disagree about Scotty being ship’s commander material, unless you mean that one would have to be happy in the job to be suitable for it. He’d have been competent and miserable. But, hell, Kirk wasn’t entirely happy in the job either. I always had the sense that he was suppressing some serious discontent. Somebody wrote upthread why Scotty should be in the line of command; I’m too lazy to find out which. I just think that, if things were “real” (ha! as if that can be applied to Trek in any meaningful way!), they’d be better off with one extra layer between him and Spock. (Which is where the movies eventually ended up, methinks.) ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/150 "2011-04-28T18:37:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’d make it a lot more like _Babylon 5,_ i.e.: No post-scarcity Roddentopia. Just because we have interstellar travel and shit does not mean humanity has outgrown political conflict or labor unrest or hate or fear or greed. agreed. The other thing is the ship(s) really are little more than submarines in space. I know Roddenberry didn’t like the military at all (and thought Starfleet wouldn’t treat its people like “cattle”) but just like submarines, a ship would probably need more people onboard than they have room for. So like it or not, barracks and bunk beds would be the reality. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/151 "2011-04-28T18:37:17Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Scotty isn’t “ship commander” captain material, that’s certain. Have you seen _Friday’s Child_ ? “Let’s see if he’s got the belly for it.” ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/152 "2011-04-28T18:49:14Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > agreed. The other thing is the ship(s) really are little more than submarines in space. I know Roddenberry didn’t like the military at all (and thought Starfleet wouldn’t treat its people like “cattle”) but just like submarines, a ship would probably need more people onboard than they have room for. So like it or not, barracks and bunk beds would be the reality. Some of the TOS movie novelizations, if memory serves, reference shared bunking arrangements among junior officers (consequently also among any enlisted personel or non-Starfleet staff on board, one figures). Only senior officers and command crew got their own quarters. Later, in TNG, ship design rules changed; ships got bigger and more spacious, and not only did everyone get their own quarters, but families were allowed on board some of the ships. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/153 "2011-04-28T18:53:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Have you seen _Friday’s Child_ ? Not in many years. At any rate, my basis is what this civilian knows about US Navy carriers. There’s likely to be three officers on board with captain (O-6) rank: The ship commander, the air wing commander, and possibly the chief engineer. The CE is never going to be the CO; he’s an engineer not a paper-pusher! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/154 "2011-04-28T18:54:12Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > agreed. The other thing is the ship(s) really are little more than submarines in space. I know Roddenberry didn’t like the military at all (and thought Starfleet wouldn’t treat its people like “cattle”) but just like submarines, a ship would probably need more people onboard than they have room for. So like it or not, barracks and bunk beds would be the reality. In TOS, we never see anyone’s quarter’s but Kirk, Spock’s, Uhura’s, and maybe McCoy’s. Uhura has to give up her quarters temporarily for Elaan of Troyius, and when the latter complains Kirk says that there are none better on the ship. And what we saw wasn’t luxiurious: about a hundred square feet with a partition in the middle. I’d not be surprised if only the captain, first officer, and a few of the department heads had separate quarters. Most of the crew were double-bunking methinks. The above is, of course, contradicted by the fact that Rand appears to have her own quarters. But then she was doing the captain. 🙂 Plus they needed to show her in a nightie. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/155 "2011-04-28T19:07:20Z")
> [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](#): > > Some of the TOS movie novelizations, if memory serves, reference shared bunking arrangements among junior officers (consequently also among any enlisted personel or non-Starfleet staff on board, one figures). Only senior officers and command crew got their own quarters. Later, in TNG, ship design rules changed; ships got bigger and more spacious, and not only did everyone get their own quarters, but families were allowed on board some of the ships. Maybe. Right now, with oceangoing ships, weight (and volume) are big concerns. So big that decisions are made as to layout, what does and doesn’t get included, and so on, especially when designing something that has to float upright on the water. Engines are installed with a (design) certain performance parameters in mind. Overload the ship, it floats deeper, and loses speed performance (and maybe the turning radius is affected), and the center of gravity changes. In naval warship history, size had a direct relation to cost. So the budget department (Congress, Parliament, whatever) indirectly dictates the size of the ship. (Treaty restrictions, canal sizes, and dry dock facility sizes also do this.) From there, the designers try to work in all the stuff that the Navy wants (firepower, speed, protection. Mission parameters.). Sometimes comprimises have to be made, due to the various conflicting requirements. Crew amenities is usually low on the totem pole, but sometimes not. (Ships in the UK and the US were expected to have to traverse greater distances, e.g. the Pacific, to reach potential operating areas, and thus need more food, and maybe air conditioning, while the Italians might not be as concerned about that kind of range.) But in the future, is there a shortage of engine power? Weight restrictions? Etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/156 "2011-04-28T19:11:08Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > agreed. The other thing is the ship(s) really are little more than submarines in space. I know Roddenberry didn’t like the military at all (and thought Starfleet wouldn’t treat its people like “cattle”) but just like submarines, a ship would probably need more people onboard than they have room for. So like it or not, barracks and bunk beds would be the reality. Fine. But – unlike the ships in every Trek series to date – in Hard SF Trek, the ships are **not** like submarines in how they move. In _Wrath of Khan,_ Kirk figures out Khan thinks in two dimensions like a surface-ship commander, and defeats him by thinking in three dimensions – like a submarine commander, not like a spaceship commander. He “gets above” Khan. Psst! Kirk! Your ship has **fully three-dimensional freedom of movement!** Your ship **does not even need to be in the same plane of orientation** as any other ship! In Hard SF Trek, all officers will be trained to understand this. And, if two ships approach each other and hold station, the other ship might appear “bow forward and right side up” on the Enterprise-HSF’s bridge viewscreen; but any exterior shot will make it clear that this is a computer correction, and the two ships are turned this way or that with respect to each other, **not** aligning on a comon axis as if they were two surface ships or two submarines or two helicopters. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/157 "2011-04-28T19:13:11Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > In TOS, we never see anyone’s quarter’s but Kirk, Spock’s, Uhura’s, and maybe McCoy’s… What about Scotty? What about Ensign Garrovick? and lest we forget, Lt. Marla McGivers. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/158 "2011-04-28T19:14:54Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] The above is, of course, contradicted by the fact that Rand appears to have her own quarters. But then she was doing the captain. 🙂 Plus they needed to show her in a nightie. [/QUOTE] I seem to recall an episode were Rand was shown as sharing quarters with another female crew member. Charlie “X”? I think Charlie brings her flowers, the room mate laughs at charlie, and he does something to make her face go away. She stumbles about, with skin over her eyes and mouth. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/159 "2011-04-28T19:15:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The above is, of course, contradicted by the fact that Rand appears to have her own quarters. But then she was doing the captain. 🙂 :eek: Shame on you! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593/160 "2011-04-28T19:17:24Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I seem to recall an episode were Rand was shown as sharing quarters with another female crew member. > > Charlie “X”? > > I think Charlie brings her flowers, the room mate laughs at charlie, and he does something to make her face go away. She stumbles about, with skin over her eyes and mouth. Hmm. You’re refuting my own nitpicking of my own argument. 😉 I was thinking of that scene in Charlie X; I thought Rand had a solo room, which seemed odd given her rank. I suppose I could look at it, as I have all of TOS on this computer, but I’m too lazy. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > :eek: > > Shame on you! Fine. She was doing the communications officer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redo-star-trek-tos-with-more-guts/579593.md?page=9)