# Redpill, you are a loathsome Neanderthal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 4, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517 "2010-11-04T22:26:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/41 "2010-11-05T09:40:00Z")
[Article - Why Men Rape](http://philosophy.illinoisstate.edu/horvath/Phi315F08/Thornhill.pdf) [More readable copy](http://iranscope.ghandchi.com/Anthology/Women/rape.htm) PUBLISHED BY THE NEW YORK ACADEMY OF SCIENCES · JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2000 FEATURE Why Men Rape Prevention efforts will founder until they are based on the understanding that rape evolved as a form of male reproductive behavior BY RANDY THORNHILL AND CRAIG T. PALMER > [@](#): > > CHALLENGING OLD IDEAS > > ``` > We want to challenge the dearly held idea that rape is not about sex. We realize that our approach and our frankness will rankle some social scientists, including some serious and well-intentioned rape investigators. But many facts point to the conclusion that rape is, in its very essence, a sexual act. Furthermore, we argue, rape has evolved over millennia of human history, along with courtship, sexual attraction and other behaviors related to the production of offspring. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/42 "2010-11-05T10:30:01Z")
[Alternatively…](http://www.eurowrc.org/06.contributions/1.contrib_en/11.contrib.en.htm) There’s only so much about human psychology that one can discern from studying scorpionflies. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/43 "2010-11-05T10:42:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Repeating that claim over and over doesn’t make it true. No text I could put here could add any value to this post. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/44 "2010-11-05T11:13:28Z")
That thread is nine kinds of creepy. My take is that Redpill tried to rape someone and couldn’t get it up, so now he’s trying to convince himself it was her fault for not being hot enough. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/45 "2010-11-05T12:23:55Z")
[QUOTE=Redpill] Looking back I can see why some women can be offended by my remark that: Hot women in a dangerous situation are more at risk for rape. Because it can be taken to indirectly mean: If no one has attempted rape on you, you must not be hot enough. [/QUOTE] Heh. that’s pretty funny. Anyway, uglying up your women has been a time-honored tradition since time immemorial. I do it with the wife & daughters every time we drive through Germany, so the Huns don’t get to them. What’s good enough for Abraham is good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/46 "2010-11-05T13:12:13Z")
> [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](#): > > 1 in 6 women and 1 in 33 men will be assaulted in their lifetime. > > College-aged women are four times more likely to be assaulted. > > 73% of those assaulted know their assailants. > > Every two minutes, someone is sexually assaulted. > > 60% of the assaults are not reported to the police. > > Only 6% of the rapists will ever spend one day in jail. > [Cite](http://www.rainn.org/) Your link just leads to a general RAINN website, which we’re supposed to sift through in order to find these statistics and their definition of “assault.” What _is_ their definition? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/47 "2010-11-05T13:29:09Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Your link just leads to a general RAINN website, which we’re supposed to sift through in order to find these statistics and their definition of “assault.” What _is_ their definition? Having perused that website lightly, they use a fairly narrow definition, but leave a lot of huge loopholes open to basically allow for anything but the blandest of technical assaults rape. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/48 "2010-11-05T15:16:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > On the contrary, I’m told over and over that rape is only about power, that sexual attraction has nothing to do with it, _ever_. Is this fun for you? Honestly? I just said that the trouble here is your refusal to acknowledge what people are actually saying in favor of your preferred fictional argument to beat up on. So you quoted my post, and cut out the part where I said you don’t acknowledge what the actual argument is. Then you pretended the argument was something else again, by talking about what you’re told over and over. I’m right the fuck here. _I’m_ saying something. Why don’t you talk about that instead of the feminist you keep in your pocket who keeps making arguments you actually have an answer to? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/49 "2010-11-05T15:23:02Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Having perused that website lightly, they use a fairly narrow definition, but leave a lot of huge loopholes open to basically allow for anything but the blandest of technical assaults rape. What do you mean by “the blandest of technical assaults”? And is there a word missing from that sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/50 "2010-11-05T15:42:21Z")
> [@Dumbguy](#): > > That thread is nine kinds of creepy. > > My take is that Redpill tried to rape someone and couldn’t get it up, so now he’s trying to convince himself it was her fault for not being hot enough. Hmm, you don’t seem that dumb to me. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/51 "2010-11-05T16:03:32Z")
Incidentally, does this all hold true for prison rape, too? Is prison rape a phenomena because guys just look so darn cute in those jumpsuits that it’s hard to resist? ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/52 "2010-11-05T16:06:15Z")
> [@Dumbguy](#): > > That thread is nine kinds of creepy. > > My take is that Redpill tried to rape someone and couldn’t get it up, so now he’s trying to convince himself it was her fault for not being hot enough. Oh, so now its my fault your mom’s fugly? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/53 "2010-11-05T16:07:16Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > b) It removes all responsibility from the victim. (eg drunk with strangers, taking drugs, leading on etc). Whoah, wait? Rape victims should be held responsible for leading their rapists on…? Wow. So you are with a strange drunk girl who you perceive as being flirty, but she says “no, I don’t want to” to having sex when you bring up the idea. Do you A. Rape ber B. Not rape her What is the difference between they guys who make these two choices? Why the hell shouldn’t we put the blame on the guy who thinks the first choice is somehow okay? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/54 "2010-11-05T16:21:45Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Hmm, you don’t seem that dumb to me. Oh well done! [The last time we had this argument](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=535310) this amusing “you sound like a rapist” rhetorical device was eventually employed against me in my arguments that the notion that rape is primarily about power are primarily a therapeutic construct that have little to do with male motivations. > [@](#): > > I think the perpetuation of the “it’s just about power” nonsense comes from (to a degree) the desire to completely remove or otherwise abstract the act of rape from any sexual connotations, and any consideration by the rape victim that the rape was in some way their fault or responsibility. > > On the face of it this makes some sense as a therapeutic method by which the rape victim can get past or handle the destructiveness of self blame and related feelings of shame that they somehow brought it on themselves which is a not uncommon reaction to being raped. However, when you take this “it’s really all about power” therapeutic paradigm and try to flog it as a model for rape in the real world the problem is that male on female rape is quite often very much about sex for the sake of sex, not some dominance exercise. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/55 "2010-11-05T16:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > male on female rape is quite often very much about sex for the sake of sex Funny how they have a whole different word for it, then. Congratulations, by the way. You’ve out-Dworkined Dworkin. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/56 "2010-11-05T16:31:40Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Incidentally, does this all hold true for prison rape, too? Is prison rape a phenomena because guys just look so darn cute in those jumpsuits that it’s hard to resist? To me, it seems to be about sex. If it was about power, then the prisoners would be as gender-indiscriminate outside prison as they are inside prison. I think I’ve read that that isn’t the case. A phenomenon I’ve noticed in myself is that I fantasize about encounters that are possible. I’m straight, married, faithful, old and (getting) ugly. My mind will toss up images and say, “Hey, forget about that cute actress, it ain’t happening and you know that, but can you rule out **this** person?” ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/57 "2010-11-05T16:32:16Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Whoah, wait? Rape victims should be held responsible for leading their rapists on…? Wow. > > So you are with a strange drunk girl who you perceive as being flirty, but she says “no, I don’t want to” to having sex when you bring up the idea. Do you > > A. Rape ber > B. Not rape her > > What is the difference between they guys who make these two choices? Why the hell shouldn’t we put the blame on the guy who thinks the first choice is somehow okay? Thank you, this is central to the argument I’ve made that’s got so many ladies pissed off, so let me clarify. The guy takes full blame. Period. If he has sex with her without her consent, he has committed a crime and should pay the full penalty as put forth by the law. However, we would be wise to look into her taking the steps she took which put her more at risk, so that the risk can be reduced. This is looking from the victim’s perspective in addition to the 100% blame for the guy’s from moral and legal perspective. This doesn’t take any blame away from the rapist as is commonly felt. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/58 "2010-11-05T16:44:23Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > The guy takes full blame. Period. If he has sex with her without her consent, he has committed a crime and should pay the full penalty as put forth by the law. > > However, we would be wise to look into her taking the steps she took which put her more at risk, so that the risk can be reduced. This is looking from the victim’s perspective in addition to the 100% blame for the guy’s from moral and legal perspective. This doesn’t take any blame away from the rapist as is commonly felt. Exactly. It’s all the rapist’s fault, we just need to look at what the victim did wrong that led to her getting raped. Not placing blame, of course, just trying to figure out why she did things that caused something bad to happen to her, so that people who actually don’t want to get raped can not do those things. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/59 "2010-11-05T16:49:13Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > To me, it seems to be about sex. If it was about power, then the prisoners would be as gender-indiscriminate outside prison as they are inside prison. > > I think I’ve read that that isn’t the case. Well, I’d say that prisoners aren’t at all gender-indiscriminate. They only have access to people of their own sex, which is something different from not caring. I don’t see any reason why your statement is more true than the reverse would be – ‘if it was about sex, then the prisoners would be as gender-indiscriminate outside prison’ etc. There’s a lot of sexualized behavior that goes on in a prison environment that doesn’t necessarily translate outside; I doubt that it’s particularly common for a group of violent, homophobic guys in their 20s to sit in a circle masturbating and have a contest to see who can get his nut the quickest, and yet that’s a legitimate measure of… something in prison. Anyway, I’m also pretty sure that rape isn’t _about_ anything in particular, other than rape, which is what makes the entire conversation close to worthless if it isn’t being conducted in good faith. What’s assault about? What’s murder about? “Rape is about power” was never seriously intended to be a positive definition. It’s an implicit argument that rape must be ‘about’ more than sex. ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/60 "2010-11-05T16:49:53Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Incidentally, does this all hold true for prison rape, too? Is prison rape a phenomena because guys just look so darn cute in those jumpsuits that it’s hard to resist? As mentioned earlier in the thread, rape has many complex reasons behind it. I think in many, many cases it’s about somebody wanting to get off and lacking empathy. In other cases, it is not. Male on male rape can be used to dominate and humiliate. So can male on female, female on male, or female on female. I was actually the victim of “humiliation rape” as a teenager. I don’t think the man who assaulted me was some kind of self-loathing closet case struggling with an overpowering attraction to me. For him it was more likely a way to feminize and degrade me. In prison, I can easily see that sort of domination or punishment rape happening. On the other hand, I can also easily see rape born out of sexual frustration. One of the problems with ignoring the sexual desire that’s often behind rape or implying it’s purely about sexual attraction as \*\*Redpill \*\*does is that it’s ignoring the realities of the male sex drive. Sometimes your hand doesn’t cut it. Sometimes you desperately want a _hole_, to be perfectly crude. When I’m sexually frustrated it’s like a form of temporary insanity. The more frustrated I get, the lower my standards get. This is why glory holes get frequented. This is why prostitutes don’t have to be particularly attractive. If it’s a choice between sitting around and dying of frustration as you hope for somebody you like who is attractive and who wants you or going out to a bar and fucking whatever will take you, for some men that second choice looks mighty good. Couple that with some sociopathic tendencies and fucked up ideas about sex and you’ve got some guy who sees anyone who excites him–and remember, get frustrated enough and _anything_ can start exciting you–as “asking” for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517.md?page=4)