# Redpill, you are a loathsome Neanderthal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 4, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517 "2010-11-04T22:26:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/61 "2010-11-05T17:20:55Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I don’t see any reason why your statement is more true than the reverse would be – ‘if it was about sex, then the prisoners would be as gender-indiscriminate outside prison’ etc. Hi **Chitwood**. I’m certainly not setting myself up as an expert on this topic, and sex often (usually) involves a sludgepot of biological and sociological factors. But I’ll disagree that your take is a valid as mine. If prison rape is primarily about power, then on the outside raping a man should be no less desirable than raping a woman. On the other hand, if prison rape is primarily about sex, then once the rapist is back in the outside world he’ll quickly shift to a target he finds more sexually arousing. My understanding is that the latter happens more often than the former. Also, the “sex is more important than power” explanation just makes biological sense. The primary evolutionary imperatives are to survive and hump. Rape lets you hump. While gaining power over others is a winning biological strategy, I don’t think anonymous rapes provide an evolutionarily useful type of power. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/62 "2010-11-05T17:31:00Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Exactly. It’s all the rapist’s fault, we just need to look at what the victim did wrong that led to her getting raped. Not placing blame, of course, just trying to figure out why she did things that caused something bad to happen to her, so that people who actually don’t want to get raped can not do those things. > > Got it. :smack: I refuse to believe you can be this dumb. You must be pulling my leg. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/63 "2010-11-05T17:54:36Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > But I’ll disagree that your take is a valid as mine. If prison rape is primarily about power, then on the outside raping a man should be no less desirable than raping a woman. > > On the other hand, if prison rape is primarily about sex, then once the rapist is back in the outside world he’ll quickly shift to a target he finds more sexually arousing. > > My understanding is that the latter happens more often than the former. From the article [“Male Rape”](http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32361) on the website for National Center for the Victims of Crime: > [@](#): > > In a well-known study of offenders and victims conducted by Nicholas Groth and Ann Burgess, one-half of the offender population described their consenting sexual encounters to be with women only, while 38 percent had consenting sexual encounters with men and women. Additionally, one-half of the victim population was strictly heterosexual. Among the offenders studied, the gender of the victim did not appear to be of specific significance to half of the offenders. Instead, they appeared to be relatively indiscriminate with regard to their choice of a victim – that is, their victims included both males and females, as well as both adults and children (Groth & Burgess, 1980). **The choice of a victim seemed to be more a matter of accessibility than of sexual orientation, gender or age.** Bolding added. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/64 "2010-11-05T18:02:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It does however invalidate the claim that “rape is about power”. Not “often about power”, not “sometimes also about power”; the claim is that it is only about power. And the claim is that men never rape just for sex, ever. > > That’s what the claim is; that all rapists have an agenda. That none of them are simply ruthless and indulging their sex drive; that they are subordinating their sex drive to the goal of oppressing women. That they will rape women they find unattractive because they aren’t motivated by sexual desire at all. Maybe I hang out in all the wrong places. I’ve never seen anyone make such absolutist claims about the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/65 "2010-11-05T18:05:10Z")
Neither does playing Final Fantasy provide an evolutionary useful type of power, **Baal Houtham**. People are still compelled to do so, because not everything is determined by evolutionary advantage. You’re assuming the conclusion that you think fits – men rape men in prison because they want sex, but women outside of prison because they want sex with women more – but you aren’t providing any reason why that must be so. If raping a woman is more desirable because it’s being driven exclusively by sex, then homosexual prison rape is explained in that way, sure. But if raping a woman is more desirable because it’s being driven by power, or by convenience, or by politics, or literally anything else, then homosexual prison rape can be explained in those ways, too. What I’m saying is that the fact that rape fulfills a sexual urge isn’t the end of the inquiry. There’s clearly sexual gratification taking place, so it’s axiomatic that rape is “about sex” in that sense - there’s sexual intercourse taking place. But assuming that because the act itself is sexual we’re obligated to explain it in the context of normal sexual relations is a massive trap, I think, and it leads to the kinds of terribly flawed arguments that are going on in these threads at the moment. Keeping it in the prison context might actually make some sense here: imagine a 17 year old goes into a correctional facility. He hears a lot of threats and a lot of old-timers talking about what they’re going to do to his ass. Sooner or later, he finds himself in a cell with some other dude who demands some kind of gratification or he’s going to cut his throat. He doesn’t want to, so he fights back. The guards take some privileges away for making trouble, and put him in a cell with a bigger dude next time. Let’s say he fights back for a couple years, he gets cut a few times, cuts somebody else a few more times, breaks a few bones, tries to kill himself and gets in trouble for that, maybe, and eventually he gets worn down enough that he says, you know what, whatever, I’m just going to let them turn me out. They broke me. They win. I’d rather be a punk than have to fight every day of my life. So he does. And every day or so for the rest of his time there, one of a few older inmates rapes him, and they call him boy or bitch or faggot. And he calls them daddy or big man or something like that. Now, tell that guy that what happened to him was just about the other inmates wanting sex, and that, well, he was a young attractive guy, so it makes perfect sense that he was desirable. Nobody had anything against you, really, they were just horny. Really it’s a bit of a compliment. And then explain to him the ways in which _he_ could take responsibility for the situation, since his attractiveness is a deciding factor in whether or not he gets raped. Not that it’s his fault, of course, but really, he could have taken some steps to not make himself such an obvious target for those other guys. It was wrong of them, yes, yes, of course, but hey, the penis wants what it wants and there’s no need to make this into some kind of _political_ thing. It’s not like they had some anti-you _agenda_; they just weren’t being very considerate. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/66 "2010-11-05T18:08:25Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > :smack: I refuse to believe you can be this dumb. You must be pulling my leg. Believe it, pal! Wait. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/67 "2010-11-05T18:18:35Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > From the article [“Male Rape”](http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32361) on the website for National Center for the Victims of Crime: > Bolding added. Hi Mr. **Polecat**. Again, I’m not exceptionally informed on this issue, and I’m open to being educated. However, glancing at the study it seems to be dealing with male rape, rather than rape in general. I believe there are many more female rapes than male rapes… indicating that sexual preference (not just exercise of power) is a very big factor. But again, it’s complicated. Anything dealing with sex, particularly forbidden/illegal sex is complicated. In the cited study on male rape, 38% of the perpetrators had consensual sex exclusively with females. I didn’t read the whole study, but those could be closeted, primarily gay bi-sexuals looking for an outlet. Complicated. I only glanced at your cite for a minute, but I didn’t get the impression it proved that gender was irrelevant to all (or even most) rapists. ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/68 "2010-11-05T18:24:36Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > However, glancing at the study it seems to be dealing with male rape, rather than rape in general. I believe there are many more female rapes than male rapes… indicating that sexual preference (not just exercise of power) is a very big factor. Not necessarily. If rape is a crime of opportunity, it’s much easier for a man to overpower a woman than it is to do the same to another man. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/69 "2010-11-05T18:41:39Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Now, tell that guy that what happened to him was just about the other inmates wanting sex, and that, well, he was a young attractive guy, so it makes perfect sense that he was desirable. Nobody had anything against you, really, they were just horny. Really it’s a bit of a compliment. And then explain to him the ways in which _he_ could take responsibility for the situation, since his attractiveness is a deciding factor in whether or not he gets raped. Not that it’s his fault, of course, but really, he could have taken some steps to not make himself such an obvious target for those other guys. It was wrong of them, yes, yes, of course, but hey, the penis wants what it wants and there’s no need to make this into some kind of _political_ thing. It’s not like they had some anti-you _agenda_; they just weren’t being very considerate. What you are doing here is taking an example where the victim has **no** control whatsoever and then applying it to all instances of rape to propose that, it would be always futile for victim to take precautions or change behavior to reduce risk. The prison inmate has no choice in the matter, but a real world teen can reduce the risk by not drinking heavily for example. (Disclaimer for people like **Giraffe** : This does not mean the rapist is any less of a criminal if the precautions are not taken and rape occurs, the aim is prevention) ---
**Author:** ![Purd\_Werfect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Purd\_Werfect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Purd_Werfect)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/70 "2010-11-05T19:22:35Z")
I know it’s all minefieldy in here, but I’ll comment anyway. It seems like some are suggesting that power and sex are mutually exclusive, but it also seems to me that the arousal can come from not just the appearance or characteristics of the victim, but from the situational characteristics. In other words, the situation of non-consensual dominance can be the largest factor in arousal, and the non-consenting party - while physical characteristics or mannerisms may play a part - is secondary to the situation. A prop for the perpetrator. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/71 "2010-11-05T20:06:30Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Hi **Chitwood**. I’m certainly not setting myself up as an expert on this topic, and sex often (usually) involves a sludgepot of biological and sociological factors. > > But I’ll disagree that your take is a valid as mine. If prison rape is primarily about power, then on the outside raping a man should be no less desirable than raping a woman. > > On the other hand, if prison rape is primarily about sex, then once the rapist is back in the outside world he’ll quickly shift to a target he finds more sexually arousing. > > My understanding is that the latter happens more often than the former. > > Also, the “sex is more important than power” explanation just makes biological sense. The primary evolutionary imperatives are to survive and hump. Rape lets you hump. > > While gaining power over others is a winning biological strategy, I don’t think anonymous rapes provide an evolutionarily useful type of power. Your example doesn’t really prove anything, because the same logic applies to both the “power” argument and the “sex” argument. If it’s about sex, prison rape occurs because men who want to have sex with women are denied the opportunity, and so turn to other men. If it’s about power, then prison rape still occurs because men who want to exercise power over women are denied that opportunity, and so turn to other men. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/72 "2010-11-05T20:49:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If it’s about power, then prison rape still occurs because men who want to exercise power over women are denied that opportunity, and so turn to other men. If the motivation in question is significantly affected by gender, I’m thinking it’s more likely to be sex than power. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/73 "2010-11-05T20:57:49Z")
I’d like to vote against rape. No more rape. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/74 "2010-11-05T21:00:15Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I’d like to vote against rape. No more rape. While the measure would pass if ever put to a vote, it would only be effective in Narnia and Oz. Actually just Oz, now that I think on it. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/75 "2010-11-05T21:04:59Z")
Yeah, they do love rape in Narnia. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/76 "2010-11-05T21:17:01Z")
I saw an HBO documentary that suggested it isn’t verboten in Oz either. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/77 "2010-11-05T21:18:49Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Yeah, they do love rape in Narnia. Who doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/78 "2010-11-05T21:41:58Z")
> [@Tahssa](#): > > Who doesn’t? Me. I think rape is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/79 "2010-11-05T22:21:54Z")
Wierdo. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/80 "2010-11-06T00:29:53Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Me. I think rape is bad. What about serprize secks? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517.md?page=5)