# Redpill, you are a loathsome Neanderthal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 4, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517 "2010-11-04T22:26:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/141 "2010-11-06T23:31:57Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Not sarcasm. I’m really glad that someone managed to sum up that there is no dichotomy between victim-blaming and talking about how women should protect themselves; **they are the same goddamn thing**. You’re right I blame the victim. They had it coming and the men who raped the victim were part of a vast global conspiracy of males seeking to subjugate women. Your and **Jimmy** ’s line of reasoning are far more productive in preventing rapes than any other approach. Let me know if there are any other stupid myths I could echo chamber for you. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/142 "2010-11-06T23:39:28Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > When I was subject to an attempted rape, it was from the taxi driver who was driving me home after I fractured three vertebrae in a motorcycle accident. He knew I couldn’t run (or even walk) away. > > Not sure how I was supposed to prevent that one. No, there’s nothing you could have done about this. No one is suggesting otherwise. > [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](#): > > Yeah, when I was 15 years old walking to school, how was I supposed to prevent being dragged in a garage by a Marine who happened to be walking by at 7:15 a.m? > l > When I was 31 and working the Renaissance Faires (NOT drinking), how was I supposed to fend off the two guys who were drinking and decided they wanted a gang-bang, dragging me into their tent and stuffing a dirty sock in my mouth so I couldn’t scream? > > As a child, should I have stopped walking to school? Obviously I should not have been at the RenFaire because that place is rife with bawdy behaviour and the girls are just asking for it. > > Sheesh. No, there’s nothing you could have done about this either. No one is suggesting otherwise. > [@Weedy](#): > > A lot of victim-blaming does go on in rape cases. She was a slut, she was asking for it. There’s a difference between ‘it’s dangerous to get drunk, and make yourself vulnerable and impaired’ and ‘nice girls shouldn’t be out drinking in bars, such sluts have it coming’. But one is can be code for the other, and they both end up the same for women: “Don’t go out drinking.” No, its not the same. Don’ t drink and drive does not mean don’t drink at all. Degrees are important. > [@Peeta\_Mellark](#): > > As an example of victim blaming, just recently there was an incident in which a woman who works for Google was at a tech convention and a man shoved his hand inside of her underwear and tried to force further sexual contact. I’ve seen a lot of comments elsewhere on the web pointing out that she’d been drinking and had “laid in the laps of fabulous people” before it occurred and so the man should be excused for thinking his assault would be welcome. Interesting. So you suggest in this case the guy would have shoved his hand in her underwear even if she had not given them lap dances. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/143 "2010-11-07T00:15:35Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > It should be obvious, but when people say things like this > (snip) > and this > (snip) > it makes it seem as though people who encourage safety are inherently (even if implicitly) blaming the victim, which is very false. In general, it’s certainly false; I agree. I think that within the context of this conversation, though, it’s a fair accusation, and that’s the accusation I’m making. Without the backdrop of, for instance, [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13089473&postcount=81) post as a predicate – or even the shape of the entire discussion, really – I’m sure I’d be a lot slower to come to that conclusion. But it’s just far too convenient in context. I’ve seen it too many times before. Speaking of which, > [@](#): > > Also, I’ve apparently come across \*far \*less actual victim-blaming than you have in real life. I’m sure that’s true, and I’d bet that it’s because having spent a bit of time in criminal court, I’ve been around more victims and offenders, so it’s right there for me to see on a regular basis. And it really works, you know? It’s an incredibly effective way to change the conversation to something far less damning, because on its face it isn’t unreasonable, so it’s persuasive, and it makes it look like the other side is overreacting. But I don’t think I am overreacting when 100 out of 100 conversations about rape end up being far more about the victim’s behavior and credibility than anything else. It’s not a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fried_Dough_Ho)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/144 "2010-11-07T00:24:58Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > :dubious: Am I seriously supposed to write up a response to this stupid bitch? I’m just wondering if there is any way for you to communicate intelligently without calling people names and using such foul language? Where does that sort of rudeness get you other than to piss people off and completely ignore what you might be trying to say? :mad::mad::mad: ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/145 "2010-11-07T00:32:44Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > …But I don’t think I am overreacting when 100 out of 100 conversations about rape end up being far more about the victim’s behavior and credibility than anything else. It’s not a coincidence. For good reason. Actually the same thing happens when its the woman who has offed or assaulted the man. Looking into what happened and why. Good luck with changing human nature. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/146 "2010-11-07T00:33:05Z")
My response to your entire post is “Fair enough,” except this: > [@](#): > > But I don’t think I am overreacting when 100 out of 100 conversations about rape end up being far more about the victim’s behavior and credibility than anything else." Really? Even if we’re going to assume this is hyperbole, most conversations you have about rape, on and off the board, in casual conversation and via your profession, devolve into ultimately being about the woman’s behavior? In what way? In that her actions make her at least partially responsible for her attack? They tend to focus “far more” on what she did than on what her assailant did? I ask in seriousness, because I have never had a single conversation that has gone anything like that. Even in the rare instances of actual victim-blaming I’ve come across, it is minimal (of course still wrong), and almost all of the blame is still on the perpetrator. ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/147 "2010-11-07T00:47:52Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > Interesting. So you suggest in this case the guy would have shoved his hand in her underwear even if she had not given them lap dances. “Laying” in a lap is a far cry from “sitting” in a lap and an even farther cry from “lap dancing.” Dogs and children lay in laps. But the fact that you instantly try to twist things to blame the victim really proves my point well. > [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](#): > > I’m just wondering if there is any way for you to communicate intelligently without calling people names and using such foul language? > > Where does that sort of rudeness get you other than to piss people off and completely ignore what you might be trying to say? > > :mad::mad::mad: Whoa, whoa, whoa. **MeanOldLady** did _not_ start the name calling or the foul language with **rachelellogram**. MOL is awesome beyond words and even when I don’t agree with her I recognize this fact. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/148 "2010-11-07T00:57:43Z")
> [@Peeta\_Mellark](#): > > “Laying” in a lap is a far cry from “sitting” in a lap and an even farther cry from “lap dancing.” Dogs and children lay in laps. But the fact that you instantly try to twist things to blame the victim really proves my point well. I feel you are trying to escape my question. Do you think the guy would still have shoved his hand in her underwear even if she didn’t lay in his lap. Yes or No? (I’m ignoring the possibility that there was more going on, just going by what you wrote) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/149 "2010-11-07T00:59:54Z")
[QUOTE=MeanOldLady] Really? Even if we’re going to assume this is hyperbole, most conversations you have about rape, on and off the board, in casual conversation and via your profession, devolve into ultimately being about the woman’s behavior? In what way? In that her actions make her at least partially responsible for her attack? They tend to focus “far more” on what she did than on what her assailant did? [/QUOTE] Well, I’m sure we have different definitions of the terms involved. The first thing that occurs to me is that when you say “conversation about rape,” you probably aren’t considering that in the vast majority of cases there’s a significant contingent of people denying that a rape ever took place. You know? It happens in abuse cases, too. There is, I believe, a considerable number of people who are just dying to play devil’s advocate even in the seemingly open and shut cases. But you’re right. I said 99 out of 100 originally, and I should have stuck with that. In the rare case where there’s a vicious rape that involves an all-out assault, this isn’t the conversation we have. Most rapes aren’t like that, though – and certainly not most alleged rapes. Those conversations go the same way this thread has gone – everybody agrees, putatively, that rape is terrible if it happens – it just so happens that they want to talk about something else. People just think it’s _interesting_ to point out that three days later, the victim reportedly said such and such, or to talk about how easily she could have done this or done that if she really wanted to get away. Or they _just wonder_, couldn’t you interpret it this way, too, and doesn’t it just seem unlikely that…? It gets back to the point about what real rapes tend to be like and how that differs from the sort of prototypical movie smash and grab rape; they’re creepy and personal and shrouded in doubt and uncertainty and usually occur in the context of a relationship that can be cast in a variety of lights. There’s always something that can be spun. And it always is. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/150 "2010-11-07T01:00:19Z")
**MeanOldLady** speaks with clarity and cuts through the nonsense with flair, why she’s one of my favorite people on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/151 "2010-11-07T01:01:09Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > I feel you are trying to escape my question. > > Do you think the guy would still have shoved his hand in her underwear even if she didn’t lay in his lap. Yes or No? > > (I’m ignoring the possibility that there was more going on, just going by what you wrote) What I wrote did not include her being in _his_ lap, so your line of questioning is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fried_Dough_Ho)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/152 "2010-11-07T01:03:06Z")
> [@Peeta\_Mellark](#): > > Whoa, whoa, whoa. **MeanOldLady** did _not_ start the name calling or the foul language with **rachelellogram**. MOL is awesome beyond words and even when I don’t agree with her I recognize this fact. But she called me a Dumb Fuck which was un-called for an inappropriate. I’m ashamed that I even responded but saw her diatribes with profanity continued. Name-calling when trying to make a point only diminishes the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/153 "2010-11-07T01:07:41Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > **MeanOldLady** speaks with clarity and cuts through the nonsense with flair, why she’s one of my favorite people on this board. Are you wearing the home jersey or the away? Is it cold in the bleachers? ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/154 "2010-11-07T01:09:34Z")
> [@Peeta\_Mellark](#): > > What I wrote did not include her being in _his_ lap, so your line of questioning is moot. No its not, assuming she was laying in various as well as this guy’s lap, do you think the incident could have been avoided by her not doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/155 "2010-11-07T01:13:38Z")
> [@Redpill](#): > > No its not, assuming she was laying in various as well as this guy’s lap, do you think the incident could have been avoided by her not doing that? No, I don’t. From the description of the incident I read I’m not even sure if the man who allegedly assaulted her had seen her before the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/156 "2010-11-07T01:18:19Z")
> [@Peeta\_Mellark](#): > > No, I don’t. From the description of the incident I read I’m not even sure if the man who allegedly assaulted her had seen her before the incident. Thanks for answering and Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/157 "2010-11-07T09:23:40Z")
## MOL, do you agree with the following: 1. Questioning what a woman did/didn’t do to prevent interaction with her rapist after a rape has occurred in order to decide whether to hold her attacker responsible for the rape is victim-blaming. 2. This questioning happens every time a woman brings a rape case to trial, or every time the case is casually discussed among her friends or family (or total strangers on the internet). 3. Passing judgments on the woman’s behavior prior to the rape is equivalent to telling women what they can and cannot do if they want to prevent themselves from becoming rape victims. 4. Telling a rape victim that she could have acted differently to prevent the rape is victim-blaming. – Which of these statements do you disagree with, if any? I am trying to boil this argument down to your most basic tenets to find out why you think victim-blaming is ok. Because whether you mean to or not, you are endorsing it. And that is WRONG. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/158 "2010-11-07T13:34:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Are you wearing the home jersey or the away? > > Is it cold in the bleachers? Don’t go heckling my fan club. Membership is at an all time low! Re **paralegalgram** : Why should I even bother writing answers to those questions when you clearly have not read anything I have written? ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/159 "2010-11-07T17:41:17Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Don’t go heckling my fan club. Membership is at an all time low! When’s the next application deadline? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517/160 "2010-11-07T17:49:23Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Don’t go heckling my fan club. Membership is at an all time low!\ Sorry, I’m working on getting a position with **Giraffe’s** executive committee. Maybe if that doesn’t work out… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redpill-you-are-a-loathsome-neanderthal/559517.md?page=9)