# Redskins Win! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942 "2009-09-21T13:41:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/281 "2014-07-07T14:09:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think the only tangible benefit is the assistance of the US Customs Service I stopping infringing items from crossing the border. But I could be missing something… Also automatic federal venue instead of having to prove diversity jurisdiction. ETA: plus stuff in Ascenray’s link. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/282 "2014-07-07T14:20:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If that doesn’t answer your question, then I’m happy to elaborate further. That was exactly what I was looking for, thanks! It’s three weeks to the bar exam and my brain is beginning to shut down, so you’ll have to forgive the rather vague wording of my question. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/283 "2014-07-07T15:30:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think the only tangible benefit is the assistance of the US Customs Service I stopping infringing items from crossing the border. But I could be missing something… Yes, without this it’s the obligation of the trademark holder to get an injunction from a court. But that’s fairly routine too. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/284 "2014-07-07T20:43:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > IMO, the law should not protect a right to not be offended. That’s the rule I’d make if I were making the rules. > > I would not choose to exercise my right to offend people – if I were the team owner, I’d change the name. But if I were making the law, I would not use the law to compel the team owner to change the name. Yeah, that’s fair enough. I think I’d be fine with saying “disparaging trademarks should be treated like all other trademarks”, and offensive though a name may be, it doesn’t need to be the role of the government to proclaim its offensiveness. I do think though that once you go down the route of saying "We’re going to treat disparaging names differently than other names, the fact that a bunch of people who _aren’t the ones being insulted_ think the name is just fine and dandy doesn’t really count for much of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/285 "2014-07-07T21:15:13Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Yeah, that’s fair enough. I think I’d be fine with saying “disparaging trademarks should be treated like all other trademarks”, and offensive though a name may be, it doesn’t need to be the role of the government to proclaim its offensiveness. > > I do think though that once you go down the route of saying "We’re going to treat disparaging names differently than other names, the fact that a bunch of people who _aren’t the ones being insulted_ think the name is just fine and dandy doesn’t really count for much of anything. Well, when you put it like that… …good point. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/286 "2015-07-08T20:09:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what will you say if the court reaches a different conclusion? What do you have to say now that the court didn’t? > [@](#): > > **Federal judge orders cancellation of Redskins’ trademark registrations** > > U.S. District [Judge Gerald Bruce Lee’s decision](http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/local/judges-ruling-on-redskins-trademark/1750/) affirmed an earlier ruling by the federal Trademark Trial and Appeal Board. Last year, the appeal board declared in a 2-to-1 vote that the team’s moniker is offensive to Native Americans and therefore ineligible for federal trademark protection under the Lanham Act. > > Lee agreed with that assessment, rejecting the team’s argument that the vast majority of Native Americans had no objection to the name when the trademarks were granted between 1967 and 1990. Instead the judge questioned why the team ever chose the name, pointing out in his ruling that Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defined the word as “often contemptuous” in 1898, “seventy years prior to the registration of the first Redskins Mark”. > > [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/judge-upholds-cancellation-of-redskins-trademarks-in-a-legal-and-symbolic-setback-for-team/2015/07/08/5a65424e-1e6e-11e5-aeb9-a411a84c9d55_story.html) Something interesting (maybe only to me) - the judge was born in and educated in the DC area so he presumably lived most, if not all of his life there and he is probably a sports fan (he referenced [a quote from former basketball player Allan Iverson in his decision](https://twitter.com/michaelpRTD/status/618794176566706176/photo/1)) yet he managed to get past the “heritage not hate” hubris (hmm… where does that phrase ring a bell… [Oh yeah, that’s it](http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2015/06/30/3675899/confederate-flag-debate-boost-fight-change-redskins-name/)!) and call the name what it is: Disparaging, despicable, and racist. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/287 "2015-07-08T22:36:05Z")
“…the appeal board declared in a 2-to-1 vote that the team’s moniker is offensive to Native Americans.” That shit required a vote? Way to go, humans! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/288 "2015-07-08T23:53:45Z")
As activists have pointed out this whole time, I don’t see how you can think the name is offensive AND think it’s okay as a team name. Believe one or the other, that’s fine, but both together? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/289 "2015-07-09T00:11:17Z")
I haven’t read the ruling but heard that the judge used the recent SCOTUS ruling on the Texas license plate case re: confederate flag in justifying the government’s right to reject certain items I.e. The trademark registration is government speech and not private speech. Somehow I don’t equate the state of Texas issuing a license plate to a resident the same as a commercial enterprise seeking a trademark, but that may just be me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/290 "2015-07-09T00:25:58Z")
I have nothing to say until the circuit court rules. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/291 "2015-07-09T00:31:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have nothing to say until the circuit court rules. Yet, one question persists: You still don’t think the word is racist? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/292 "2015-07-09T00:59:39Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Somehow I don’t equate the state of Texas issuing a license plate to a resident the same as a commercial enterprise seeking a trademark, but that may just be me. I’ve emphasized this repeatedly in this thread and others, but here goes again. Regardless of how this eventually comes out, you are never going to be able to parse this issue correctly until you start thinking and speaking and writing in a way that distinguishes a _trademark_ from a _registration_. The Redskins are _not_ “seeking a trademark.” They are seeking (to preserve) a _registration_. _The registration is not the trademark._ And one doesn’t _seek_ a trademark from the government. One _uses_ a trademark and one owns or holds a trademark (to be precise, trademark rights) based on activities that have nothing to do with the PTO. You don’t get a trademark from the PTO—you go out and earn your trademark yourself. In today’s opinion, the court went to great lengths to make this distinction. The PTO doesn’t grant trademarks. It doesn’t say what trademarks get created. It doesn’t say what trademarks get used. It only decides whether a trademark can be registered. (A trademark is something that a commercial enterprise can have property interest in. According to today’s decision, a registration is not property.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/293 "2015-07-09T01:04:33Z")
Someone kept asking me today what the Redskins have actually lost in this decision. When it comes right down to it—other than the customs issue—all they’ve lot is some face. For all practical purposes, what it amounts to is a moral and a public relations loss. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/294 "2015-07-09T01:07:31Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Yet, one question persists: You still don’t think the word is racist? Why is my personal opinion remotely relevant? There’s a whole forum for people to share their opinions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/295 "2015-07-09T01:23:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is my personal opinion remotely relevant? > > There’s a whole forum for people to share their opinions. You didn’t have a problem before. In fact, you said very succinctly: > [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree it’s racist. You had no problem giving your opinion - I assume you thought it was relevant before? I think it’s still relevant and would like to know if you still feel that way. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/296 "2015-07-09T01:58:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is my personal opinion remotely relevant? > > There’s a whole forum for people to share their opinions. Well, shit, all these years, I’ve been posting my personal opinions in the wrong forum? And nobody bothered to tell me? You guys are a bunch of dicks! ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/297 "2015-07-09T14:53:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’ve emphasized this repeatedly in this thread and others, but here goes again. > > Regardless of how this eventually comes out, you are never going to be able to parse this issue correctly until you start thinking and speaking and writing in a way that distinguishes a _trademark_ from a _registration_. > > The Redskins are _not_ “seeking a trademark.” They are seeking (to preserve) a _registration_. _The registration is not the trademark._ > > And one doesn’t _seek_ a trademark from the government. One _uses_ a trademark and one owns or holds a trademark (to be precise, trademark rights) based on activities that have nothing to do with the PTO. You don’t get a trademark from the PTO—you go out and earn your trademark yourself. > > In today’s opinion, the court went to great lengths to make this distinction. The PTO doesn’t grant trademarks. It doesn’t say what trademarks get created. It doesn’t say what trademarks get used. It only decides whether a trademark can be registered. > > (A trademark is something that a commercial enterprise can have property interest in. According to today’s decision, a registration is not property.) That makes sense…thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/298 "2015-07-09T15:32:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That was exactly what I was looking for, thanks! It’s three weeks to the bar exam and my brain is beginning to shut down, so you’ll have to forgive the rather vague wording of my question. Almost a year to the day… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/299 "2015-07-09T17:47:23Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > And the team has never embraced Native American imagery or culture in using the name? Oh wait, [they did it all the time including after trademarks were registered](http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/06/18/3450434/7-things-that-convinced-the-us-patent-office-to-cancel-the-redskins-trademark/). That link shows the basic evidence that caused the Patent Office to rule the way they did. [Not only the team:](http://www.redskinsfacts.com/facts) • The Redskins logo in use today was first designed in 1971 in close consultation with Native American leaders. Among those who unanimously approved and voiced praise for the logo was Walter “Blackie” Wetzel, a former President of the National Congress of American Indians and Chairman of the Blackfeet Nation. Years earlier, Mr. Wetzel had been deeply involved with U.S. President John F. Kennedy in the movement for civil liberties, civil rights, and economic freedom for all. In 2014, Mr. Wetzel’s son Don commented, “It needs to be said that an Indian from the State of Montana created that [Redskins] logo, and did it the right way. It represents the Red Nation, and it’s something to be proud of.” • Similarly dignified images of Native Americans in traditional headdress are still in use by other American organizations, as well. For example, The National Congress of American Indians—which, coincidentally, was founded after the Washington Redskins football team—has such a logo. Also: Before all the fanfare associated with Redskins football, there was the name itself. • More than a decade ago, in the authoritative linguistic survey “I Am A Red-Skin: The Adoption of a Native American Expression (1769-1826),” Ives Goddard—the senior linguist and curator at the Smithsonian Institution—concluded that the word “redskins” was created by Native Americans, and that it was first used as an inclusive expression of solidarity by multi-tribal delegations who traveled to Washington, D.C. to negotiate national policy towards Native Americans. “The actual origin of the word (redskin) is entirely benign,” Goddard is quoted as saying. • Prominent Indian leaders of the 19th century—from Sitting Bull (a Hunkpapa Lakota Chief) to French Crow (Principal Chief of the Wahpekute band of Santee Sioux) to Tecumseh (a Shawnee chief)—are documented as having referred to themselves as “Red Men” or “Red-skins.” • On the inaugural Redskins team in 1933, four players and then-head coach William Henry “Lone Star” Dietz identified themselves as Native Americans. ---
**Author:** ![funky\_little\_lee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@funky\_little\_lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funky_little_lee)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/300 "2015-07-09T18:00:31Z")
So call 'em the Crackers. I wouldn’t mind having a football team named after my race. Oh wait, you can’t, because that might imply that White people are worthy of recognition. Sorry, forgot my liberal values there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=16)