# Redskins Win! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942 "2009-09-21T13:41:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/301 "2015-07-09T18:45:51Z")
Being of European descent is an accident, being white is a choice. I refuse, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/302 "2015-07-09T21:06:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > [Not only the team:](http://www.redskinsfacts.com/facts) Well, you used [redskinsfacts.com](http://redskinsfacts.com). Can’t think of a more impartial site than that! Oh, and we’ve been through all of this before. I’ll post it again since you didn’t see it the first time. > [@](#): > > [1933 news article refutes cherished tale that Redskins were named to honor Indian coach](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/1933-news-article-refutes-cherished-tale-that-redskins-were-named-to-honor-indian-coach/2014/05/28/19ad32e8-e698-11e3-afc6-a1dd9407abcf_story.html?hpid=z4) > > The team and NFL have claimed that then-owner George Preston Marshall picked the current name to honor the team’s Indian coach, William “Lone Star” Dietz, and some Indian players on the squad. > > There’s a lot of controversy over whether Dietz was actually a Native American. Witten’s article doesn’t resolve that. > > But it does refute the team’s contention that the name was selected to celebrate Dietz. > > The proof is in a July 6, 1933, edition of the Hartford Courant, which Witten unearthed after the sports Web site MMQB tipped him off about it. > > The edition includes a short Associated Press dispatch quoting Marshall saying: “The fact that we have in our head coach, Lone Star Dietz, an Indian, together with several Indian players, has not, as may be suspected, inspired me to select the name Redskins.” Your logic - like your citation - is suspect anyway. There are many, many, many more Native American groups who have had a problem with the name. That’s why a federal judge ruled that the Patent and Trademark Office were correct when they deemed the term offensive. It is. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/303 "2015-07-09T22:11:50Z")
The team was founded under the name Boston Braves, same as the baseball club, and rented Braves Field as a playing site. The baseball club evicted them for non-payment of rent after one year,but after Marshall already had taken delivery of a new set of uniforms with an Indian head on them. The Red Sox agreed to take the football club as a tenant at Fenway Park, despite Marshall’s history (and presumably on stricter terms), but of course they had to drop the name Braves. However, Marshall had already taken delivery of a new set of uniforms with an Indian head on them, and rather than buy another set, he chose the first name that came to mind that matched. Glad to clear that up for ya. BTW, all my Indian relatives think the R-word is an ethnic slur. Sure, many don’t, but is that what we should be reduced to? The point is still that the team is now pretty much forced to make a change for financial reasons (history comes around, huh?), and so they finally will. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/304 "2015-07-09T22:26:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have nothing to say until the circuit court rules. What’s the standard of review? De novo or abuse of discretion? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/305 "2015-07-09T23:26:37Z")
> [@funky\_little\_lee](#): > > So call 'em the Crackers. I wouldn’t mind having a football team named after my race. > > Oh wait, you can’t, because that might imply that White people are worthy of recognition. Sorry, forgot my liberal values there. [Right](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame_Fighting_Irish), [because](http://www.ticketkingonline.com/tickets/images/minnesota-vikings.jpg) [there](http://static.festisite.com/static/partylogo/img/logos/patriots.png) [are no](http://www.sports-logos-screensavers.com/user/New_York_Yankees2.jpg) [teams](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8f/Boston_Celtics.svg/1024px-Boston_Celtics.svg.png) [named](http://bouncyorangeball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/New-York-Knicks-Logo.jpg) [after](http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/lakers/images/gameday/team_logos_500x500/phi.png) [Europeans](http://www.sports-logos-screensavers.com/user/Cleveland_Cavaliers2.jpg) [nationalities](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/97/Dallas_Mavericks_logo.svg/1028px-Dallas_Mavericks_logo.svg.png), [or groups](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/5a/27/5d/5a275da84deb9b20525ea2a492970755.jpg) [or events](http://www.sportshdwallpapers.com/download/nfl-tennesee-titans-logo-white_1600x1200_1029-desktop.jpg) [that](http://lifestylefrisco.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/dallas-cowboys-star-logo.jpg) [primarily](http://www.brothersonsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/49ers.jpg) [involved](http://content.sportslogos.net/logos/53/79/full/1388.gif) [Europeans](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/75/Rochester_Americans.svg/1280px-Rochester_Americans.svg.png). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/306 "2015-07-09T23:34:00Z")
> [@funky\_little\_lee](#): > > So call 'em the Crackers. I wouldn’t mind having a football team named after my race. > > Oh wait, you can’t, because that might imply that White people are worthy of recognition. I, too, have felt undervalued as a white person. Only 99% of the culture is dedicated to the history and appearance and desires of people who looked like me, and dammit, I feel so alone. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/307 "2015-07-10T16:54:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what will you say if the court reaches a different conclusion? > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > “You’re a hypothetical hypocrite!” This is one of the lamest, last-resortest arguments around. It seems like I’m seeing it a lot lately. Pretty funny since the court upheld it and now he wants to say nothing - even his own opinion on whether the term is racist (which he has no problem sharing before). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/308 "2015-07-10T19:49:05Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > What’s the standard of review? De novo or abuse of discretion? It’s mixed. The question of how disparaging the name is is a question of fact, and the ruling will be reviewed for an abuse of discretion, but the Redskins’ also raised constitutional issues – a First Amendment claim and a due process/takings clause claim tied how long ago the marks were registered and when this complaint was brought. Those are questions of law and will be reviewed de novo. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/309 "2015-07-10T19:50:49Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > You didn’t have a problem before. In fact, you said very succinctly: > > You had no problem giving your opinion - I assume you thought it was relevant before? I think it’s still relevant and would like to know if you still feel that way. I didn’t think it was relevant before. I guess I felt chatty then. Today, I’m taciturn. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/310 "2015-07-10T20:33:12Z")
Well, we all have those days. Grab a six pack and go fishing, fix you right up! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/311 "2015-07-11T15:16:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Someone kept asking me today what the Redskins have actually lost in this decision. When it comes right down to it—other than the customs issue—all they’ve lot is some face. For all practical purposes, what it amounts to is a moral and a public relations loss. This doesn’t make sense to me. If there’s no benefit of registering a trademark, then why would people register them? Clearly the loss of registration must mean something important. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/312 "2015-07-11T17:45:32Z")
This article which came out a year ago when the PTO first canceled their trademark registration, does a nice job of explaining the ramifications of their actions. [http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/06/19/3450729/redskins-trademark-decision-cost-lots-of-money/](http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/06/19/3450729/redskins-trademark-decision-cost-lots-of-money/) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/313 "2015-07-11T18:50:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > This doesn’t make sense to me. If there’s no benefit of registering a trademark, then why would people register them? Clearly the loss of registration must mean something important. The trademark affords you _greater_ legal protection. And the penalties you can collect are also greater. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/314 "2015-07-16T00:36:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > This doesn’t make sense to me. If there’s no benefit of registering a trademark, then why would people register them? Clearly the loss of registration must mean something important. Of course there are _benefits_ to registration. There are also costs to registration, such as time and fees. Many, many trademark holders never bother to register their trademarks either at the state or at the federal level, because those costs might not be worth the benefits. The question is whether the Redskins have lost any trademark rights. The answer is no. They haven’t. Both federal and state law fully protect unregistered trademarks. They have not lost trademark protections. They have not lost the right to stop infringement or counterfeits or knockoffs. The loss of registration might—_might_—make it slightly more expensive in term of time and attorney’s fees to take a case to court. It also might _not_ be any more expensive for them in any particular case. For an entity with such an extensive, public, recorded, known, national history of use in commerce of their trademark, the Redskins, especially, would have no problem enforcing their trademark rights against an infringer. (I have heard an argument that having a trademark declared disparaging under Section 2(a) of the Lanham Trademark Act of 1946 would lead a court to rule that you could not bring an action for infringement of an unregistered trademark under Section 43(a) of the Lanham Act, but I have seen nothing that leads me to think that this is true.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/315 "2015-07-16T00:44:15Z")
So why are they going to such expense to fight this since it might not cost them anything more just to say “fine, you made your ruling but we’re keeping the name?” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/316 "2015-07-16T00:54:30Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So why are they going to such expense to fight this since it might not cost them anything more just to say “fine, you made your ruling but we’re keeping the name?” That is the point I have been making. That in my view this is largely a moral and public relations loss for them. The loss of registrations hurts them most not because of the actual legal consequences for their trademark rights, but because it’s another setback in their fight to resist public pressure. And this is exactly the reason that the plaintiffs are pursuing their case, to win a symbolic victory over the Redskins with the secondary hope that it will be a step on the road to a name change resulting from public opinion. Also because defiant and continued resistance energizes their supporters. And also because it’s in Dan Snyder’s nature to resist everything all the time for as long as he can. Snyder wants to stick it to his opponents as much as they want to stick it to him. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/317 "2015-07-16T02:02:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That is the point I have been making. That in my view this is largely a moral and public relations loss for them. Yeah, I think there’s no way to make “a court says our name is offensive” into a good thing. Okay, maybe on Stormfront. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/318 "2015-12-23T20:03:10Z")
Today, the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled in a somewhat similar case. In _In re Tam_, they said: > [@](#): > > Section 2(a) of the Lanham Act barsthe Patent and Trademark Office (“PTO”) from registering scandalous, immoral, or disparaging marks. 15 U.S.C. §1052(a). > > The government enacted this law—and defends it today—because it disapproves of the messages conveyed by disparaging marks. It is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment that the government may not penalize private speech merely because it disapproves of the message it conveys. That principle governs even when the government’s message-discriminatory penalty is less than a prohibition. They gone on to reverse the purportedly offensive trademark at issue in that case - “The Slants,” presumably a reference to Asians. The reasoning here would, in my view, equally compel reversal in the Redskins’ case. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/319 "2015-12-23T20:41:33Z")
I can’t see that holding up (though I agree with the reasoning). The Act _itself_ contravenes the bedrock principle of the First Amendment speech clause. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/320 "2015-12-23T22:06:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I can’t see that holding up (though I agree with the reasoning). The Act _itself_ contravenes the bedrock principle of the First Amendment speech clause. Is that so? The entire trademark statute? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=17)