# Redskins Win! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942 "2009-09-21T13:41:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/61 "2009-09-23T00:23:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > To me it seems huge. Then you should also be against the United States claiming that it landed on the Moon since more than 9% of people polled in 2005-06 doubted that it happened. Democracy is a good thing, sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/62 "2009-09-23T15:13:02Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Then you should also be against the United States claiming that it landed on the Moon since more than 9% of people polled in 2005-06 doubted that it happened. > > Democracy is a good thing, sometimes. I think this is the worst argument I’ve ever seen on this board, and I have seen some real doozies. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/63 "2009-09-23T15:22:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m a Cleveland Indians fan, and they should change their name as well. Is there any data to show that Indians find the name offensive? As long as the team uses the Chief Wahoo logo, the team name itself is not the primary problem. Now\* that’s\* offensive. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/64 "2009-09-23T15:36:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is there any data to show that Indians find the name offensive? > > As long as the team uses the Chief Wahoo logo, the team name itself is not the primary problem. Now\* that’s\* offensive. The team has been making a lot of changes to uniforms, etc. that seem to be moving away from Chief Wahoo–using the block C and script I logos on the hats, for example. I’ve seen polls that show there is some offense, and every game I’ve ever been to had protesters, though generally not in huge numbers. Dropping Chief Wahoo while not dropping the name strikes me as more difficult for PR. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/65 "2009-09-24T02:46:40Z")
I just hope that Oklahoma (Choctaw for “red people”) doesn’t have to change its name because I don’t want to get new business cards. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/66 "2009-09-24T03:22:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > STOP. > > The word Negro is NOT considered offensive. It never was and it is not now. > > It is now considered outdated or old fashioned, just as colored is, but there is no pejorative connotation associated with the word and there is nor insult, however mild, that it conjures up. It marks the speaker as a bit out of touch with current mores, but it says nothing about ther person or persons so identified. > > [/Straight Dope fact moment] Wouldn’t you say the exact same thing about “redskins”? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/67 "2009-09-24T03:33:13Z")
I think this is much ado about the usual PC nonsense. The same forces are at work here that got marquette University to change from Warriors to Golden Eagles, and made the stink about the Nyack Indians. If only 9% of the people are offended, end of story. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/68 "2014-06-23T03:24:30Z")
> [@](#): > > The United States Patent and Trademark Office has canceled six federal trademark registrations for the name of the Washington Redskins, ruling that the name is “disparaging to Native Americans” and thus cannot be trademarked under federal law that prohibits the protection of offensive or disparaging language. > > “We decide, based on the evidence properly before us, that these registrations must be cancelled because they were disparaging to Native Americans at the respective times they were registered,” the board wrote in its opinion, which is here. > > [Think Progress](http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/06/18/3450333/in-landmark-decision-us-patent-office-cancels-trademark-for-redskins-football-team/) When the Patent Office overturned the same type of ruling, which prompted this celebratory thread several years ago, they did so because they claimed to not have enough evidence. They provided [a lot of evidence](http://www.uspto.gov/news/USPTO_Official_Statement_on_TTAB_decision_in_Blackhorse_v_Pro_Football_Inc.pdf) this time around. So if this appeal is successful, it won’t be because of a lack of evidence. Hopefully this will be the first real step to get that team to change it’s godforsaken name long past when they should have done so. ---
**Author:** ![chicagowhitesox1173](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@chicagowhitesox1173](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicagowhitesox1173)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/69 "2014-06-23T03:29:21Z")
That’s BS, why do people care if they change their name? It’s because they have nothing better to do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/70 "2014-06-23T03:41:56Z")
It’s because Native Americans don’t need to be reminded of their second class citizenship and history every Sunday in the fall. ---
**Author:** ![chicagowhitesox1173](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@chicagowhitesox1173](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicagowhitesox1173)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/71 "2014-06-23T03:45:12Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > It’s because Native Americans don’t need to be reminded of their second class citizenship and history every Sunday in the fall. 90 percent of them don’t care either ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/72 "2014-06-23T03:53:20Z")
I [wouldn’t use it as authoritatively](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins_name_controversy#Public_opinion_polls) as some posters of SBMB Circa 2009 did: > [@](#): > > At a symposium at the Washington College of Law at American University, the topic was discussed, noting following problems with the National Annenberg Election Survey: > > [ul][li]Being ten years old, the survey is of little value given the evolution of public opinion on other social issues over the same period.[/li][li]Context matters - The questions regarding the football team were only part of a longer election-year survey.[/li][li]The self-identification problem - Comparing the US Census data for self-identified Native Americans with the numbers of enrolled tribal citizens, 40% of those who claim to be Native American have no support for that claim.[/li][li]Use of landlines - Only 53% of Native Americans had a land-line in 2005, so almost half of the target population was excluded from the sampling process.[/li][li]The question was poorly worded and confusing - The phrasing As a Native American, do you find that name offensive or doesn’t it bother you? has multiple issues. It is a two part question with no single answer. There is a difference between finding something offensive and not being bothered.[/li][li]Sample size - Only 768 Native Americans were polled, which is only 0.04 percent of the population, meeting the minimal requirement to be statistically significant, but too few to justify using it as a definitive measure of Native American opinion given the issues cited above.[/ul][/li] > In addition, it was noted that even taken at face value, the poll indicates that 9 percent of Native Americans are insulted, which implies that it is permissible to insult others if they are in the minority. There is also the question of the need for a survey on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/73 "2014-06-23T03:55:57Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > It’s because Native Americans don’t need to be reminded of their second class citizenship and history every Sunday in the fall. So… changing the Redskins’ name is going to solve all of their problems? :rolleyes: Perhaps society should prioritize _actually improving Native Americans’ situation_ **before** we go after organizations that are allegedly disparaging them, but that would require actual investment and involvement on the part of those criticizing, hmm? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/74 "2014-06-23T04:05:03Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > So… changing the Redskins’ name is going to solve all of their problems? Nice strawman. Nobody said it would help all of their problems. It would be a nice start however, one that wouldn’t cost a dime to fix. > [@](#): > > Perhaps society should prioritize _actually improving Native Americans’ situation_ **before** we go after organizations that are allegedly disparaging them, but that would require actual investment and involvement on the part of those criticizing, hmm? What shot do we have of convincing society that Native Americans have a lot of problems, almost all of which have been started by the treatment that they have received, and go about trying to fix them if society is not only willing to allow a team to have the name Redskins but even fight for that name to continue to be used in the face of overwhelming evidence that the term is disparaging to Native Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/75 "2014-06-23T04:11:41Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Perhaps society should prioritize _actually improving Native Americans’ situation_ **before** we go after organizations that are allegedly disparaging them, but that would require actual investment and involvement on the part of those criticizing, hmm? Actually improving the Native Americans’ situation is not mutually exclusive with changing a team name that also happens to be a racial slur. But that’s a business decision on the part of the owner. The law says that you can’t trademark a patently offensive phrase. I agree with the law and believe that the relevant authorities should obey it. I can see no public interest in enforcing trademarks for open bigots: get the government out of racial slur trademark enforcement. I do agree the owners of the Washington team should have free speech rights. As do I. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/76 "2014-06-23T04:12:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The Redskins offered the defense of _laches_: they said that the plaintiffs had had years to complain about the trademark, years in which the team invested a great deal of time and money promoting their trademark. Also, years in which society’s standards about such things changed a great deal. Just ask the Kansas City Niggers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/77 "2014-06-23T04:14:11Z")
“RED-SKIN, n. A North American Indian, whose skin is not red — at least not on the outside.” – Ambrose Bierce ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/78 "2014-06-23T04:15:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Also, years in which society’s standards about such things changed a great deal. Just ask the Kansas City Niggers. Was there really a team with that name or are you using hyperbole to make a (valid) point? I only ask because the [Google results were fucking frightening](https://www.google.com/search?q=Kansas+City+Niggers&oq=Kansas+City+Niggers&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8). ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/79 "2014-06-23T04:27:18Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Nice strawman. Nobody said it would help all of their problems. It would be a nice start however, one that wouldn’t cost a dime to fix. It wouldn’t cost _you_ a dime to fix. > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > What shot do we have of convincing society that Native Americans have a lot of problems, almost all of which have been started by the treatment that they have received, and go about trying to fix them if society is not only willing to allow a team to have the name Redskins but even fight for that name to continue to be used in the face of overwhelming evidence that the term is disparaging to Native Americans? Okay, so the Redskins change their name. This is the first tile in a set of dominoes that’s going to set in motion a revolution in the way Native Americans are treated in this country? That’s complete bullshit and you know it. The PC police get the Redskins to change their name, and the next step in the Native American cause is-- NOTHING! The team becomes something else, and all the PC harpies buzzing around disappear and never think about Native Americans again for the rest of their life, because it never really mattered to them in the first place, it was just the “cause of the week” in The Recreational Activism Newsletter and in the meantime NOTHING ACTUALLY CHANGES FOR NATIVE AMERICANS, because the painful truth is **NOBODY REALLY FUCKING CARES**. The fact that Native Americans have a lot of problems is no secret to anybody; hasn’t been for decades, at the least. The fact that the _idea_ of The Noble Native American is romantic and appealing to Americans translates to exactly jack shit when it comes to actual action. The plight of Native Americans is a complicated issue that we don’t need to get into, but my point is we’re aiming a very large gun at a very small fish; big picture, this solves nothing. This is convincing Jay-Z to stop using the n-word, then declaring victory over said word. It’s meaningless. And the fact that there are any people, Native American or no, who would actually consider that any sort of meaningful “victory” is just sad. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/80 "2014-06-23T04:42:31Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Was there really a team with that name or are you using hyperbole to make a (valid) point? > > I only ask because the [Google results were fucking frightening](https://www.google.com/search?q=Kansas+City+Niggers&oq=Kansas+City+Niggers&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8). Actually, I was flashing on an old SNL “Franken and Davis” sketch about what American sports teams would be called if the Injuns had won the Indian Wars. Other teams named were the “Polacks,” etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=5)