# Redskins Win! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942 "2009-09-21T13:41:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/101 "2014-06-23T16:05:07Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Proposals for the new team name: > > Washington Niggers > Washington Kikes > Washington Towelheads > Washington Honkies > Washington Spics > Washington Wetbacks > Washington Japs > Washington Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkeys I know that you are being facetious, but the fact that we don’t have those team names gives support to the idea that “Redskins” is not meant to be offensive. Teams are naming themselves and would not purposely give themselves a moniker that speaks poorly of them. I can’t imagine a team naming themselves the Washington Jerk Offs. Calling an American Indian a “redskin” today has certainly fallen out of favor. I put it in the category of negro and colored, as a non-offensive yet outdated term. If the team called themselves that back in the 1930s then they clearly thought it was a positive term. > [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Iirc the idea of laches is that a person who has been offended has an obligation to confront the offender within a reasonable amount of time to notify them of the alleged offense. If one waits too long, one has, in effect, given permission by silence to those who have arguably done wrong. > > E.g. if my dog is chewing up your lawn, tell me about it so I can fix it. Don’t wait for ten years and then sue me for ten years of lost harvests and cry about how I hate farmers. That’s it exactly. 1967 was forty seven years ago. It’s just not right to wait 47 years to bring these kinds of suits. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/102 "2014-06-23T16:05:13Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Proposals for the new team name: > > Washington Niggers > Washington Kikes > Washington Towelheads > Washington Honkies > Washington Spics > Washington Wetbacks > Washington Japs > Washington Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkeys Do the French even play football Robert? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/103 "2014-06-23T16:46:24Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If the team called themselves that back in the 1930s then they clearly thought it was a positive term. [Since 1933](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/), having shared the name of the National League baseball team the previous season. The baseball team had been the Braves since 1912 when a member of [Tammany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamanend) Hall became the club president. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/104 "2014-06-23T16:53:01Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Since 1933](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/), having shared the name of the National League baseball team the previous season. The baseball team had been the Braves since 1912 when a member of [Tammany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamanend) Hall became the club president. So it seems that they decided they wanted a different name from the baseball team. They had an Indian name, and the other baseball team was the Red Sox. So how about Redskins? It really doesn’t seem like it was done out of animus. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/105 "2014-06-23T17:10:59Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So it seems that they decided they wanted a different name from the baseball team. They had an Indian name, and the other baseball team was the Red Sox. So how about Redskins? > > It really doesn’t seem like it was done out of animus. It’s really a question of when “redskin” crossed the line from just an appellation (Webster’s, 1913) to offensive. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/106 "2014-06-23T17:19:12Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > It’s really a question of when “redskin” crossed the line from just an appellation (Webster’s, 1913) to offensive. Or if it did. When only 9% of Native Americans consider it offensive, one has to wonder if it IS objectively offensive. I certainly can’t support that a term becomes offensive only when high-minded liberals believe it to be so. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/107 "2014-06-23T17:27:17Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > contrarian yahoos. iTEAM NAME! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/108 "2014-06-23T17:33:20Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Or if it did. When only 9% of Native Americans consider it offensive, one has to wonder if it IS objectively offensive. Webster’s now says “usually offensive”. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/109 "2014-06-23T17:38:46Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Webster’s now says “usually offensive”. Just because I get hired to be an editor at Webster’s doesn’t mean that my personal opinion becomes the sine qua non of U.S. trademark law. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/110 "2014-06-23T19:11:09Z")
It should be interesting to watch as a lot of trademarks get similar treatment as the Redskins. N.W.A - Niggas Wit Attitudes may escape unharmed since the name doesn’t actually spell out Nigga. However [Cracker Azz Skateboards](http://trademarks.justia.com/859/27/cracka-azz-skateboards-85927818.html), [Blanco Basura](http://www.blancobasura.com/) (which means white trash), [Uppity Negro](http://uppitynegronetwork.com/) and [Figgas over Niggas](http://figgasoverniggas.com/) obviously have to go. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/111 "2014-06-23T21:36:12Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Just because I get hired to be an editor at Webster’s doesn’t mean that my personal opinion becomes the sine qua non of U.S. trademark law. Why are you assuming that’s a _personal_ opinion of the dictionary editor, and not a _professional_ opinion? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/112 "2014-06-23T21:47:03Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Just because I get hired to be an editor at Webster’s doesn’t mean that my personal opinion becomes the sine qua non of U.S. trademark law. Maybe try not to see conspiracies everywhere because they disagree with you? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/113 "2014-06-23T22:05:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > IMHO, the patent office should only deny a registration when a trademark is clearly and indisputably so patently offensive that there is no serious debate about it. I’m not sure there is any such thing. Everyone who argues thinks their argument is serious and that their point of view is defensible. In any case you’re essentially saying the registration should only be denied if the name is so offensive that nobody would want to use it in the first place. That doesn’t accomplish much, does it? > [@jtgain](#): > > So it seems that they decided they wanted a different name from the baseball team. They had an Indian name, and the other baseball team was the Red Sox. So how about Redskins? Nobody is that casual in naming a team. The team insists it was named in honor of its coach, a guy purported to be a Native American. My understanding is that he was lying. And of course founding owner George Marshall was a notorious racist and his team was the last in the NFL to integrate. So to me it’s hard to give them the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/114 "2014-06-23T22:31:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure there is any such thing. Everyone who argues thinks their argument is serious and that their point of view is defensible. In any case you’re essentially saying the registration should only be denied if the name is so offensive that nobody would want to use it in the first place. That doesn’t accomplish much, does it? I don’t think my test is that meaningless. If I try to trademark a picture of my erect penis in the background with a foreground caption of “Fuck You” I might show up with a lawyer and argue why it isn’t offensive. I don’t think that there would be serious debate in support of my position. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/115 "2014-06-24T01:16:23Z")
If “Redskins” is racist, then _any other color term is racist._ I have a counter-proposal. I am of White Anglo-Saxon Protestant descent. I have pink skin and reddish-blond hair. While I am indifferent at best to their team, I am perfectly willing to sign over rights to a stylized version of my likeness to the Washington Redskins organization in exchange for a modest stipend sufficient to keep in me in high-speed internet and Chee-tos. If the various Indian Nations contend that the term is offensive because it a) doesn’t apply to them because their skin is not actually red, and b) it is obviously being used to apply to them as redskinned people, this should evade that paradox, and cover all objections. My skin is red. Me. Name the team after me, put (a cartoon version of) _my_ red face all over their merchandise. They get to be ignored, the team gets to keep its name for the sake of organizational continuity, and I get Chee-tos. Everybody wins. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/116 "2014-06-24T01:22:58Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If “Redskins” is racist, then _any other color term is racist._ Some of the people on this board are so incredibly unbelievable I can’t believe they exist. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/117 "2014-06-24T01:39:38Z")
Do _you_ believe that the term was created disparagingly, to slander Native Americans as people who paint their faces with blood? Or is it simply that someone with olive to tan skin will often tend to be reddish from sunburn, whether they are an Egyptian Fellah, a Choctaw, or a Swede? Look, I think the highest-profit commercial move is to change the name. I neither follow handegg nor have any personal reason to root for the Redskins. Were I somehow at a Redskins game, I would probably be rooting _against_ them. I have no particular attachment to this trademark, and trademarks can change. That said– When this is being pushed by people who believe angry troll etymologies, it gets my back up, because it’s surrendering to a kind of historical fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/118 "2014-06-24T01:51:53Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > When the Patent Office overturned the same type of ruling, which prompted this celebratory thread several years ago, they did so because they claimed to not have enough evidence. They provided [a lot of evidence](http://www.uspto.gov/news/USPTO_Official_Statement_on_TTAB_decision_in_Blackhorse_v_Pro_Football_Inc.pdf) this time around. So if this appeal is successful, it won’t be because of a lack of evidence. > > Hopefully this will be the first real step to get that team to change it’s godforsaken name long past when they should have done so. Dredging up crusty old threads for ‘neener neener’ isn’t cool when Bricker does it either. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/119 "2014-06-24T01:52:34Z")
And yes, it would be pretty goofy to call a team the Blackskins or Whiteskins. Or Goldenskins. Or Blueskins. Wait, those last two aren’t as offensively tin-eared, because they aren’t _part of the old black/white color wars._ Wait, maybe context matters? Because that’s what this hinges on. So why are they called the Redskins? Why is the team in Minnesota called the Vikings? Why does Kansas City have the Chiefs? Is it just possible that it’s an arbitrary historical reference? A tacky one, but _aren’t they all?_ Again, when an Indian says not to call him a redskin, I’m not sure what to make of that. If it is that his skin is actually tan and not red (…arguable) then my above offer stands. I am from red people and unashamed. I’ll be their mascot. I’m not even kidding. Cut the Indians out of it completely, _since the actual team has nothing to do with Indians._ Much like the Detroit Tigers have nothing to do with stripey cats. If it’s that he thinks he is “red” and is ashamed, maybe it’s time for a new social consciousness campaign. How about “Red Is Respectable”? If it’s just that saying the sounds |'rɛd skɪn| magically makes me a |'rei sɪst|, well, I can’t help your superstitions other than by defying them. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/120 "2014-06-24T02:17:21Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Was there really a team with that name or are you using hyperbole to make a (valid) point? > > I only ask because the [Google results were fucking frightening](https://www.google.com/search?q=Kansas+City+Niggers&oq=Kansas+City+Niggers&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8). There used to be a lot of places in the South and the West with names like “Nigger Mountain” and “Nigger River” well into the 40s and 50scbefore they changed their names. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=7)