# Redskins Win! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942 "2009-09-21T13:41:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/141 "2014-06-24T19:26:56Z")
I continue to be amazed and slightly bemused by the insistence people put upon their legal right to be a dick and their coincident belief that it should matter to me that they get to be a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/142 "2014-06-24T20:36:48Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > I find gambling offensive and a terrible vice. Lets do a swap. Washington Redskins give up the name, Native Americans give up the casinos. Oh wait, casinos are reparations. I guess some get 'em, [others don’t.](http://www.theatlantic.com/ta-nehisi-coates/) Now that’s offensive. Casinos are not reparations: they fall under the rubric of treaty and sovereignty. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Sorry. Whether or not I think the name is tacky, I think the Patent Office is wrong, and this is a horrible, horrible policy. > > Subjective offensiveness, however deeply felt, however widespread, _is simply not a logical reason to void someone’s trademark._ EVER. > > It was wrong when it was done to Darkie toothpaste, it’s wrong here. Whatever you may think about the imagery of the trademark, using a government office to force its brand of political correctness on a business is vile. > > There are a hell of a lot of people who are offended by homosexual acts. How about we start voiding trademarks as too offensive to register if they stink of Gay Pride? Is that OK? So the Pittsburgh Cocksuckers can’t register a trademark? Too bad. And the government isn’t forcing anything. You can sell Darkie toothpaste if you want. But the government won’t step in and back you up if somebody else decides to sell Darkie toothpaste. In practice this is a pretty weak ruling. Even if upheld on appeal, “The team will also retain its common-law rights, which would allow it to sue any organization or corporation attempting to use the name without consent.” A more arduous process, but who cares? It’s still a matter of what sort of services private enterprise is demanding from the government. US Customs won’t be obliged to stop counterfeit Red[del]neck[/del]skins merchandise at the border, but the Washington team will still be able to sue. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/143 "2014-06-24T20:38:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not correct. > > What’s been “won” at this point is a favorable decision by the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board of the US Patent and Trademark Office. The lawsuit, which has not commenced yet in any meaningful way, will be heard in the United States District Court, District of Columbia. > > In 1999, the same thing happened: the TTAB cancelled the trademark registration of the problematic Redskins trademarks. (See Harjo v. Pro-Football, Inc., 50 USPQ 2d 1705 (1999)). The Redskins then commenced a lawsuit, one that they won. The court ordered the US PTO to re-instate the trademarks. (See Pro Football, Inc. v. Harjo, 565 F. 3d 880 (Ct App, DC Cir 2009). > > Now another set of petitioners has again convinced the TTAB to cancel the Redskins trademarks. > > But they have not yet won any lawsuit. Ah ok, good to know. I had thought the lawsuit was the first step. So basically, they complained, found evidence for it, and the Patent office agreed, and now the Snyder is suing to toss out that decision? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/144 "2014-06-24T20:43:52Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > No insult intended, or delivered, because when we speak of “Redskins” we speak only of the football team. You don’t want to be called a Redskin, don’t be part of that football team or a potato. Easy peasy. That might work: [https://twitter.com/scottbayha/status/386921212833587201](https://twitter.com/scottbayha/status/386921212833587201) [![](https://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/gueman/patatoredskins.png) ](https://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/gueman/patatoredskins.png) Or just call them the Washington Potatoes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/145 "2014-06-24T21:30:35Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > That might work: > [x.com](https://twitter.com/scottbayha/status/386921212833587201) > [http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/gueman/patatoredskins.png](http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/gueman/patatoredskins.png) > > Or just call them the Washington Potatoes. the problem with that is they’ll end up using the T-shirt cannons as spud guns. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/146 "2014-06-24T22:36:07Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I continue to be amazed and slightly bemused by the insistence people put upon their legal right to be a dick and their coincident belief that it should matter to me that they get to be a dick. The legal system exists in large part so that you don’t get to be the only person to decide what constitutes “being a dick.” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/147 "2014-06-24T23:29:54Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > So when Andorians in Enterprise (look, someone had to watch it, okay) refer to humans as ‘pink skins’ I shouldn’t get all huffy? Are they breathing on you in a threatening manner as they do so? > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > And the government isn’t forcing anything. You can sell Darkie toothpaste if you want. But the government won’t step in and back you up if somebody else decides to sell Darkie toothpaste. In practice this is a pretty weak ruling. Even if upheld on appeal, “The team will also retain its common-law rights, which would allow it to sue any organization or corporation attempting to use the name without consent.” A more arduous process, but who cares? It’s still a matter of what sort of services private enterprise is demanding from the government. > > US Customs won’t be obliged to stop counterfeit Red[del]neck[/del]skins merchandise at the border, but the Washington team will still be able to sue. OK, objection withdrawn. I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/148 "2014-06-24T23:38:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The legal system exists in large part so that you don’t get to be the only person to decide what constitutes “being a dick.” When did the legal system take on the role of determining dickitude? I thought they concerned themselves with laws. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/149 "2014-06-24T23:54:43Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > It should be interesting to watch as a lot of trademarks get similar treatment as the Redskins. > > N.W.A - Niggas Wit Attitudes may escape unharmed since the name doesn’t actually spell out Nigga. > > However [Cracker Azz Skateboards](http://trademarks.justia.com/859/27/cracka-azz-skateboards-85927818.html), [Blanco Basura](http://www.blancobasura.com/) (which means white trash), [Uppity Negro](http://uppitynegronetwork.com/) and [Figgas over Niggas](http://figgasoverniggas.com/) obviously have to go. > > Slee What exactly do you think might happen in those instances? > [@Bricker](#): > > The lawsuit, which has not commenced yet in any meaningful way, will be heard in the United States District Court, District of Columbia. My understanding is that the last patent reform bill changed this to the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. Otherwise, they could appeal directly to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, but the record and arguments would be limited to those that had been raised before the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/150 "2014-06-25T00:53:07Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > It’s a dangerous precedent, is what it is. Because, Moonbeam, you live in a fanatically, extremely, right wing country. Arguably _the_ right wing country. And we don’t have to wait for the worm to turn. The most powerful political force, and the most powerful judicial tendencies in the country, are \*anti-\*leftist. Not just rightist, but anti-leftist. It’s already happened. Back in 2003, Dykes on Bikes were prevented from getting their name trademarked under exactly the same rule that’s being used against the Redskins. You know what happened as a result? Pretty much nothing. Dykes on Bikes are still around. The gay rights movement continues to be the most successful civil rights movement in history. And we’re in the middle of the second term of a Democratic president - who’s also the most vocal defender of gay rights that’s ever held the office. And the next POTUS is almost certain to be a pro-gay Democrat, as well. Literally the only fallout was that some lesbians found it moderately more work to sue some other lesbians for selling “Dykes on Bikes” t-shirts. I expect the results of the Redskins ban to be precisely as catastrophic. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/151 "2014-06-25T01:42:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s already happened. Back in 2003, Dykes on Bikes were prevented from getting their name trademarked No. They were denied _registration_ of their trademark. > [@](#): > > under exactly the same rule that’s being used against the Redskins. They appealed and were eventually permitted to register. But the outcome that you describe would not have been much different, because denial of a registration is not denial of trademark rights. > [@](#): > > I expect the results of the Redskins ban to be precisely as catastrophic. I agree, except that I expect that the Redskins will not be able to hold out forever. Eventually, public opinion in combination with the NFL’s interest in dispelling controversy will bring about a change. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/152 "2014-06-25T02:22:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No. They were denied _registration_ of their trademark. Honest to god: I had five different revisions of that post, and in each one i was very deliberate in specifying that it was the registration they were denied, and not the trademark. Except the last one. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/153 "2014-06-25T02:25:56Z")
There’s a law for that, isn’t there? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/154 "2014-06-25T22:29:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 1. The Patent Office did not “overturn” anything related to this thread’s subject. Sorry, a federal court overturned it. I should have been more clear. But the real issue is why. > [@](#): > > The issue was never “lack of evidence.” As my original post clearly and unambiguously explains I have seen it represented different ways: > [@](#): > > A federal court later overturned the ruling on appeal due to a technicality that the plaintiffs say has been fixed in this most recent case. ([Think Progress](http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/06/18/3450333/in-landmark-decision-us-patent-office-cancels-trademark-for-redskins-football-team/)) And then there’s this: > [@](#): > > The team issued a statement through attorney Bob Raskopf, who said “we are confident we will prevail once again, and that the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board’s divided ruling will be overturned on appeal.” > > Raskopf’s confidence is based on a 2003 decision by a by a federal judge to overturn a 1999 ruling by the U.S. PTO that stripped the Redskins of their trademark. The judge ruled, then, that “the [Board’s] finding that the marks at issue ‘may disparage’ Native Americans is unsupported by substantial evidence, is logically flawed and fails to apply the correct legal standard to its own findings of fact.” ([SB Nation](http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/6/18/5821138/redskins-appeal-patent-trademark-denial-dan-snyder)) Since the quote appears to be from the judge’s ruling, then yes, it seems that evidence was questioned by the judge. The SB Nation article does continue, however, with this: > [@](#): > > [As Vox points out](http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/6/18/5821138/redskins-appeal-patent-trademark-denial-dan-snyder), the 1999 ruling (which was based on a case filed in 1992) was also hamstrung by a legal technicality that does not apply to the 2014 ruling. > > - > > > [@](#): > > > > An additional problem was that the trademark had been in place for decades, and the plaintiffs had waited to file, allowing the team to invoke the legal concept of [laches](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity)) - basically, the idea that the Native Americans had taken too long to challenge the name, and had thereby waived their rights. > > > > In 2006, a new group of seven plantiffs led by Navajo Amanda Blackhorse [filed a similar suit](http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2013/05/09/native-americans-washington-mascot-fight/2148877/). Their ages ranged from 18 to 24 at the time of filing - eliminating the team’s laches defense - and they presented significantly more evidence (in the form of academic articles, linguist testimony, film clips, newspaper clippings, and other media) that the team name is an ethnic slur. > > - So obviously the appeals process will take time and it might go either way but it seems that I was right that evidence was at least part of the original decision to overturn, and the part you are touting seems to be something that was addressed this time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/155 "2014-06-25T22:35:19Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Dredging up crusty old threads for ‘neener neener’ isn’t cool when Bricker does it either. It’s not that old, I didn’t think. I think most of the posters from 2009 are still around upon reading it a little more thoroughly. The fact is that I didn’t even notice who started the thread. I searched for a thread with Redskins in it and this was the most recent thread so I posted to it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/156 "2014-06-25T22:39:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody is that casual in naming a team. The team insists it was named in honor of its coach, a guy purported to be a Native American. My understanding is that he was lying. And of course founding owner George Marshall was a notorious racist and his team was the last in the NFL to integrate. So to me it’s hard to give them the benefit of the doubt. No need to give him the benefit of the doubt when he, in an article at the time, specifically pointed out in a 1933 news article that: > [@](#): > > “The fact that we have in our head coach, Lone Star Dietz, an Indian, together with several Indian players, has not, as may be suspected, inspired me to select the name Redskins.” > > Instead, Marshall explains, he gave up “Braves” to avoid confusion with a Boston professional baseball team of the same name. He apparently picked the Redskins name so he could keep the existing Native American logo. > > [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/1933-news-article-refutes-cherished-tale-that-redskins-were-named-to-honor-indian-coach/2014/05/28/19ad32e8-e698-11e3-afc6-a1dd9407abcf_story.html?hpid=z4) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/157 "2014-06-25T22:46:21Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If you’re using words like, “unyielding, strong, indomitable,” to describe a people that were ethnically cleansed out of half the continent, I will mock you until you get a dictionary. One could easily make the observation that the fact that there are any Native Americans left after what some feel is the [most massive act of genocide in human history](http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm) would indicate that they are all of those things. But, you know, you’re the expert on mocking people. Why don’t you mock those [5.2 million Natives](http://www.infoplease.com/spot/aihmcensus1.html) in person. Go to a reservation and call them all Redskins. Let us know how that works out for you. I would assume a lot differently than just making snarky comments on the internet from your mom’s basement. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/158 "2014-06-25T22:52:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s already happened. Back in 2003, Dykes on Bikes were prevented from getting their name trademarked under exactly the same rule that’s being used against the Redskins. You know what happened as a result? > > Pretty much nothing. Dykes on Bikes are still around. The gay rights movement continues to be the most successful civil rights movement in history. And we’re in the middle of the second term of a Democratic president - who’s also the most vocal defender of gay rights that’s ever held the office. And the next POTUS is almost certain to be a pro-gay Democrat, as well. Literally the only fallout was that some lesbians found it moderately more work to sue some other lesbians for selling “Dykes on Bikes” t-shirts. > > I expect the results of the Redskins ban to be precisely as catastrophic. In practical terms, I agree with you of course. But in the court of public opinion - a public which will undoubtedly use any victory as an impetus for more pressure on Snyder and the NFL to get the name changed - it can potentially be a big deal. The fact is that this thread was the most recent thread about the controversy even though it never went away. When it’s in the news, it’s in the ears of people who might be putting on the pressure and those who might eventually have to cave to it. I don’t think a regulatory agency or court of law will get the Redskins to change their name, directly or indirectly. But I do think that decisions and events such as this will hasten it happening. And needless to say I consider that a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/159 "2014-06-25T22:54:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > There used to be a lot of places in the South and the West with names like “Nigger Mountain” and “Nigger River” well into the 40s and 50scbefore they changed their names. And many of us recall [this one making a comeback](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/rick-perry-familys-hunting-camp-still-known-to-many-by-old-racially-charged-name/2011/10/01/gIQAOhY5DL_story.html) into popular vernacular during the last Presidential election. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942/160 "2014-06-26T03:21:39Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > In practical terms, I agree with you of course. But in the court of public opinion - a public which will undoubtedly use any victory as an impetus for more pressure on Snyder and the NFL to get the name changed - it can potentially be a big deal. > > The fact is that this thread was the most recent thread about the controversy even though it never went away. When it’s in the news, it’s in the ears of people who might be putting on the pressure and those who might eventually have to cave to it. > > I don’t think a regulatory agency or court of law will get the Redskins to change their name, directly or indirectly. But I do think that decisions and events such as this will hasten it happening. And needless to say I consider that a good thing. So are you asserting that public opinion favors requiring the Redskins to change their name? Because it seems to me that I have never seen a poll showing that result. Have you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/redskins-win/510942.md?page=9)