# Referendum of Death **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 4, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034 "2019-04-04T14:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/61 "2019-04-05T16:51:51Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > You’re acting as if it’s a foregone conclusion that the law will pass! Do you really think it would be impossible to keep the yes votes under 50%? For an objectively terrible law that should never have come up for a vote in the first place? > > As of this post, it’s no at 61.54%, with yes at 38.46%. Yes, I think it’s impossible to keep the yes votes under 50%. The poll for this thread has no bearing on reality, I do not believe people will not commit mass suicide by voting no. And the vast majority of people will encourage their friends and family to vote yes so that they don’t die. And I have nothing to worry about because I’m voting yes. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/62 "2019-04-05T17:03:00Z")
I wonder how the poll voting would shift if the options were; vote ‘yes’ to be killed at any time; vote ‘no’ to not be allowed to be killed. The only practical chance between this and the proposed legislation would be that yes voters in this vote could kill other yes voters and that seems like it would be murder in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/63 "2019-04-05T17:37:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes, I think it’s impossible to keep the yes votes under 50%. The poll for this thread has no bearing on reality, I do not believe people will not commit mass suicide by voting no. And the vast majority of people will encourage their friends and family to vote yes so that they don’t die. And I have nothing to worry about because I’m voting yes. I think (hope) we can agree that people who would vote yes because they want the right to kill people, or because they want to see a bunch of people killed, are psychopaths. Right? The rest of the yes voters would be people who are afraid to end up in the legally-killable no pile. They assume that the psychopaths, plus people like themselves, will add up to more than 50% in the final tally, which is reasonable. But what percentage of people are psychopaths? I don’t know the answer to that, but is it less than 50? I’m pretty certain that far less than 50% of the population are psychopaths. Would you agree with that? If you stipulate to psychopaths comprising a minority of the voting population, then all that has to happen for the law to fail is for all non-psychopaths to vote no! The nos would absolutely swamp the yesses! Problem solved, and nobody gets killed! Why is this so difficult? Because fear, obviously. Not fear of a non-existent psychopathic majority, that would be ridiculous. It’s fear that the rest of your fellow citizens will be too afraid to do the right thing and vote down a law that only a psychopath would like. A literal case of being afraid of fear itself. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/64 "2019-04-05T17:41:25Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I wonder how the poll voting would shift if the options were; vote ‘yes’ to be killed at any time; vote ‘no’ to not be allowed to be killed. The only practical chance between this and the proposed legislation would be that yes voters in this vote could kill other yes voters and that seems like it would be murder in the OP. I think you’re framing this whole thing as a vote about the voter themself and what status they hold, where I’m seeing it as a vote about whether this is a good law that should be passed or not. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/65 "2019-04-05T17:43:49Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > Because fear, obviously. Not fear of a non-existent psychopathic majority, that would be ridiculous. It’s fear that the rest of your fellow citizens will be too afraid to do the right thing and vote down a law that only a psychopath would like. A literal case of being afraid of fear itself. No, it’s an option between one choice that has no down-side, and one choice with a downside of “can be legally murdered” Why everyone wouldn’t pick the first choice is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/66 "2019-04-05T17:49:29Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No voters aren’t switching the track so the train hits a different group, they aren’t leaving the switch alone so the train will hit the group it was heading toward already, they are switching the train to a track that they are standing on. > > Do you no voters think you are going to encourage your friends and loved ones to join you in your suicide pact? > > The only moral decision is to do everything you can to get everyone to vote yes and end the problem. The point of morality is not protect your own selfish ego at the expense of others. Actually, to use your analogy, it’s more like everyone is standing by the side of the tracks. No voters are voting to keep everyone and everything the same. Yes voters are voting for the right to stand on the tracks while they derail the train into the crowd. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/67 "2019-04-05T17:50:12Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No, it’s an option between one choice that has no down-side, and one choice with a downside of “can be legally murdered” > > Why everyone wouldn’t pick the first choice is beyond me. You keep saying that! What do you mean “no down-side?” Giving some people the right to kill other people with no consequences? That doesn’t bother you at all? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/68 "2019-04-05T17:54:14Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > You keep saying that! What do you mean “no down-side?” Giving some people the right to kill other people with no consequences? That doesn’t bother you at all? Should it? I’m not doing the killing. And I’m not responsible for anyone’s actions except my own and my children. And I’m not making anybody kill anyone. If asked I would say “Even though it’s legal, don’t do it”. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/69 "2019-04-05T18:24:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Should it? I’m not doing the killing. And I’m not responsible for anyone’s actions except my own and my children. And I’m not making anybody kill anyone. If asked I would say “Even though it’s legal, don’t do it”. You have much less respect for the law than I and presumably other no voters in this thread do. The law means something to me. I acknowledge the possibility of bad laws, and the need to defy them, but except for those rare edge cases, I respect the law and consider it sovereign. I would never intentionally support a bad law or one that is morally wrong. The downside of a bad law is the negative impact on behavior, society and my fellow human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/70 "2019-04-05T18:29:28Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I would never intentionally support a bad law or one that is morally wrong. Of course, that depends on one’s definition of “bad” and “morally wrong” doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/71 "2019-04-05T18:50:04Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No, it’s an option between one choice that has no down-side, and one choice with a downside of “can be legally murdered” > > Why everyone wouldn’t pick the first choice is beyond me. As \*\*cuahtemoc \*\*said, there’s plenty of downside. Even if you aren’t personally going to be targeted for killing, living in a _Purge_-style murder-is-okay society could have a thousand different negative repercussions (economic, social, psychological, moral, practical, etc), even if you aren’t in the target group. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/72 "2019-04-05T18:52:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Of course, that depends on one’s definition of “bad” and “morally wrong” doesn’t it? I was going off your statement that "If asked I would say “Even though it’s legal, don’t do it,” which implies that you don’t believe the law is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/73 "2019-04-05T18:55:35Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > If no voters are in the minority, are known publicly, and prosecutors get peremptory strikes (as they do in our world), most juries are going to be overwhelmingly or entirely yes voters, in the same way that juries today are disproportionately white people who have never been arrested. And even the defensive yes jurors are going to want to protect themselves from the predations of disgruntled, vigilante no voters. Avoiding being murdered was why they voted yes to begin with. You seem to be suggesting that _only_ the prosecutor gets peremptory strikes. Or, in fact, that one’s voting record would not be a strike for cause (which are unlimited, unlike peremptory strikes). Forming a jury at all would be impossible, so no-voters defending themselves could just about always count on a mistrial. The prosecution would have to clearly demonstrate that a killing was wholly unrelated to the ballot measure before it could go to trial. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/74 "2019-04-05T18:58:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Should it? I’m not doing the killing. And I’m not responsible for anyone’s actions except my own and my children. And I’m not making anybody kill anyone. If asked I would say “Even though it’s legal, don’t do it”. You’re facilitating the killing. You’re obviously facilitating the killing. You’re very explicitly facilitating the killing. If you vote yes, you’re explicitly voting for two things. 1. I want it to be illegal to kill me. 2. I want it to be legal to kill certain other people. Voting no is a vote for “I don’t want it to be legal to kill anyone”, of course. It’s possibly worth noting that this is a reformulation of the classic Prisoner’s Dilemma. The major difference is that it’s not just two prisoners, it’s umpteen prisoners, and the outcomes are: 1: Voted Yes and you win. You’re safe. And complicit in murder. And suspected of murderous intentions yourself. 2: Voted Yes and you lose. You’re safe, and a pariah. 3: Voted No and you win. You’re safe, and not a pariah. 4: Voted No and you lose. You’re at risk, but not a pariah. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/75 "2019-04-05T18:59:13Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > I think you’re framing this whole thing as a vote about the voter themself and what status they hold, where I’m seeing it as a vote about whether this is a good law that should be passed or not. I am. That’s why I’d vote yes no matter what. I vote in my self-interest and while my self-interest generally revolves around a stable happy populous. For this particular law being on the do not murder list trumps everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/76 "2019-04-05T19:00:39Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I was going off your statement that "If asked I would say “Even though it’s legal, don’t do it,” which implies that you don’t believe the law is a good idea. No, I don’t believe killing people is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/77 "2019-04-05T19:02:48Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Voting no is a vote for “I don’t want it to be legal to kill anyone”, of course. . . . but if you’re going to kill someone I’m ok with it being me. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/78 "2019-04-05T19:05:53Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > . . . but if you’re going to kill someone I’m ok with it being me. But the odds that it’ll actually happen are really low, because the vast, vast majority of yes-voters merely did so to cover their own butts. Allegedly. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/79 "2019-04-05T19:05:58Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If you vote yes, you’re explicitly voting for two things. > > 1. I want it to be illegal to kill me. > 2. I want it to be legal to kill certain other people. I don’t agree with this. I want it to be illegal to kill me. I want it to be illegal to kill anyone. But I want it to be illegal to kill me so much, that I’m willing to overlook those who would vote against their own self-interest. That’s on them. Not me. You have one way, and one way only, to ensure that it’s illegal to kill you, and that is by voting ‘yes’. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034/80 "2019-04-05T19:07:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t agree with this. I want it to be illegal to kill me. I want it to be illegal to kill anyone. But I want it to be illegal to kill me so much, that I’m willing to overlook those who would vote against their own self-interest. That’s on them. Not me. > > You have one way, and one way only, to ensure that it’s illegal to kill you, and that is by voting ‘yes’. Don’t worry, I and all other no voters will still recognise the obvious, explicit, literally-written-down-with-your-vote-next-to-it fact that you voted in approval of people being able to legally kill us, and treat you accordingly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referendum-of-death/832034.md?page=5)