# Referring to a Lady as "La \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620 "2003-04-18T19:27:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/1 "2003-04-18T19:27:13Z")
I’ve seen this usage in a few books I’ve read. The writer will mention a lady by her name, say, “Beulah Pennypacker.” Later on in the story he will speak of “La Pennypacker.” I note that “La” is the feminine article in Spanish and maybe French, which may or may not relate to the usage of this term. Is this some **extremely** formal and/or **extremely** archaic way of referring to women? Is it used in polite society today (and I, being a middle-class schmoe from central Illinois would never have occasion to hear its use)? Is it only used in reference to unmarried women? Please fill me in on this colorful way of addressing someone. I can’t wait to see the looks I get the next time I use this in conversation! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![findersfee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ac91a4/32.png) [@findersfee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/findersfee)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/2 "2003-04-18T19:37:48Z")
Sounds useful if it doesn’t imply married or single. Would be like Ms. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/3 "2003-04-18T19:57:37Z")
Romance languages use articles before concept terms where in English we would not. For example, the French talk about _l’amour_ and _l’argent_, not just _amour_ and _argent_. With people, it has to do with force of personality. The more outsize the personality, the more the persona resembles an abstraction, a concept, a force of nature. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/4 "2003-04-18T20:05:40Z")
Well, I grew up speaking french, and I’ve never heard it used in that language. It may be one of those things that gets used in English, drawn from a completely different usage in French. Now, _La Dame Pennypacker_ is an overly formal way of intruducing “The Lady Pennypacker”. But I’ve never seen this in English, or French. ---
**Author:** ![quasar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@quasar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quasar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/5 "2003-04-19T18:12:12Z")
In Spanish, you use the article “la” o “el” to introduce a person. Thus, instead of saying “Señor Smith es inteligente / Señora Smith es inteligente” you would say "El señor Smith es inteligente / La señora Smith es inteligente " (Mr. Smith is intelligent / Mrs. Smith is intelligent). Regarding french, here’s my WAG: –If you refer to a person directly by his/her name, you don’t use the article: Madame Chirac est belle. (Mrs. Chirac is beautiful). –If you refer to a person identifying his/her by using a descriptive quality instead of their name, then you would use the corresponding article (le/la): La femme de Jacques Chirac est belle. (Jacques Chirac’s wife is beautiful). This WAG would seem to be reinforced by these literary examples: “Madame Bovary” rather than “La Madame Bovary”. (Gustave Flauvert) (sp?). “La dame aux Camelies” instead of “Dame aux Camelies” (Alexandre Dumas fils). ---
**Author:** ![quasar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@quasar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quasar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/6 "2003-04-19T18:41:21Z")
Just for the record, I have actually no idea whether Madame Chirac is beautiful or not. Judging by the looks on her husband, I would tend to imagine she is not. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/7 "2003-04-19T18:52:40Z")
I’ve seen it used to refer sarcastically to an opera star or actress who speaks of herself as the absolute greatest, demands near-worship and insists that everyone cater to her every whim just because of her talent. Maybe it’s short for “the great”, meant sarcastically. ---
**Author:** ![quasar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@quasar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quasar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/8 "2003-04-19T23:29:37Z")
As an aside, the article “la” can also be part of a region’s name (toponym?), e.g., **La Mancha** , of “Don Quijote” fame. “En algún lugar de La Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme…” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/9 "2003-04-20T03:15:12Z")
HeyHomie, This is a distinctly old-fashioned sort of thing. To call a woman “La \_\_\_” is to say that they are a prima donna who makes too many demands. If you use it, you’ll either not be understood at all or you’ll be slapped by the woman for the insult. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/10 "2003-04-20T04:25:12Z")
Yep, it’s a sarcastic kind of thing used to refer to a diva. No idea where it comes from, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![quasar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@quasar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quasar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/11 "2003-04-20T17:35:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wendell Wagner \* > \*\*HeyHomie, > > This is a distinctly old-fashioned sort of thing. To call a woman “La \_\_\_” is to say that they are a prima donna who makes too many demands. If you use it, you’ll either not be understood at all or you’ll be slapped by the woman for the insult. \*\* Well, to be fair, that is not necessarily so. For instance, in **Nicaragua** (where I was born), most people refer to a female using the article “la” preceding the name. This is common practice in colloquial speach, and in no way is considered pejorative. Oddly enough, the article is only used to refer to women, not men. Thus, you would be correct to say (in Nicaragua): “La María is mi amiga” (Mary is my friend), but it would be incorrect (and very odd indeed), if you were to say: “El Carlos es mi amigo.” The correct form would be “Carlos es mi amigo” (Carlos is my friend). To be fair, I’m pretty sure this is a particularly nicaraguan usage. I’ve lived most of my life in Costa Rica and such slang is completely non existant (I, myself, only use it among family members, and would indeed get very odd looks if I were to employ it in conversation with a native Costarican). In fact, in my contact with spanish speakers original from other countries, I have never found evidence of this usage, which would seem to confirm its uniqueness to Nicaragua. My 2 shares of Enron, anyway. 🙂 **Minor correction:** Since I’m posting again to this thread, I’ll like to correct a typo made on a previous post. I wrote: > [@](#): > > If you refer to a person identifying **his** /her by using a descriptive quality … [WAVES JEDI HAND] Assume I wrote "If you refer to a person identifying **HIM** /her… [/WAVES JEDI HAND] 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/12 "2003-04-20T20:54:23Z")
quasar writes: \> For instance, in Nicaragua (where I was born), most people \> refer to a female using the article “la” preceding the name. Perhaps that’s true in Nicaraguan Spanish, but in English the only cases where I’ve heard someone referred to as “La \_\_\_” are cases where the implication was that the woman was a prima donna. And I think this expression is distinctly old-fashioned in English. It sounds like something a '50’s gossip columnist would use to refer to an actress that the columnist didn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/13 "2003-04-20T21:01:29Z")
It is used in Mexico. My wife almost always refers to one sister as “la Hilda” and another as “la Güera”. ---
**Author:** ![bradwalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@bradwalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bradwalt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/14 "2003-04-20T21:08:12Z")
To HeyHomie (OPoster): I’m intrigued by this question! Can you give examples of specific books? Were you reading in the author’s original language, or an English translation? If the latter, it might be the specific translator’s convention ? Example, I think I remember seeing “La Merteuil” for “Lady Merteuil” in English translations of “Les Liaisons Dangereuses”, but I would be interested to know the specifics that sparked your question! ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/15 "2003-04-20T22:00:41Z")
It’s a sarcastic way of referring to a woman who has an inflated idea of her importance and/or a tendency for being pretentious. [Private Eye](http://www.private-eye.co.uk/) use it as an expression all the time. ---
**Author:** ![quasar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@quasar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quasar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/16 "2003-04-20T23:31:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wendell Wagner \* > \*\*quasar writes: > > \> For instance, in Nicaragua (where I was born), most people > \> refer to a female using the article “la” preceding the name. > > Perhaps that’s true in Nicaraguan Spanish, but in English the only cases where I’ve heard someone referred to as “La \_\_\_” are cases where the implication was that the woman was a prima donna. And I think this expression is distinctly old-fashioned in English. It sounds like something a '50’s gossip columnist would use to refer to an actress that the columnist didn’t like. \*\* I think you are on the right track. Sounds likely that when “prima donna” was assimilated by the English language, it came with the article included: “la prima donna.” Eventually, as it gained wider acceptance, it changed to “prima donna,” losing the article to better reflect the way English works. For reasons unknown, the more presumptuous-sounding Italian form remained in use (albeit in a less ubiquitous way), but only to emphasize the prima donna quality of a particularly snobbish lady. I imagine this “Pennypacker” lady must have been quite a primadonna to be called “ **La** Pennypacker." ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/17 "2003-04-21T01:53:49Z")
Donald Trump is often referred to as “The Donald”, but I’m not sure if he is a prima donna or not. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/18 "2003-04-21T03:03:54Z")
In modern Italian, “La …” has the prima donna connotation nowadays. In general, the only cases in which it’s not pejorative are when the lady literally _is_ a prima donna: _la Callas_, and so forth. Note too that in Greek, you _always_ use articles with given names, or so I’m told. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/19 "2003-04-21T12:00:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bradwalt \* > **To HeyHomie (OPoster): I’m intrigued by this question! Can you give examples of specific books? Were you reading in the author’s original language, or an English translation?** It’s used in the Nero Wolfe books. Nero’s legman, Archie Goodwin, has a more-or-less exclusive relationship with a rich society babe named Lily Rowan. Archie will often refer to her as “La Rowan.” He doesn’t seem to use it perjoratively (is that a word?). In the book I’m reading now, _The Missing Chapter_ (by Stout’s successor, Robert Goldsborough), Archie has just finished interviewing a young woman by the name of… uh… we’ll call her Eunice Horseapple. She doesn’t seem to be particularly demanding or self-important in the interview. Nonetheless, when Archie refers to her again, he calls her “La Horseapple.” ---
**Author:** ![Richard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Richard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620/20 "2003-04-21T13:47:22Z")
Wouldn’t this have a similar connotation as referring to Donald Trump as “The Donald”? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-a-lady-as-la/169620.md?page=2)