# Referring to people by their former job's title **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 18, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886 "2012-01-18T07:19:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/1 "2012-01-18T07:19:16Z")
I think I read somewhere that once you’ve been President, proper etiquette is that you are always referred to as President, not former President, not ex-President, but President. I’m assuming this is a throwback to the old days when rulers like Kings or Dukes or whatever always kept their title or got an upgrade since many of these were inherited through birth. Is there some written rules on this stuff? I saw the replay of one of the GOP debates and the moderator still referred to Newt as Speaker Gingrich, even though he was drummed out in disgrace and hadn’t held an elected position in over a decade. Would it really have been so wrong to just call him Mr. Gingrich? He doesn’t seem to deserve that title anymore. And how far down the ranks does this go? Senators and House Reps seem to always be referred to that way formally, and the title Governor was always used for Palin even though she quit. What about Mayor? Councilman? School board president? It seems that overuse of this practice dilutes the gravity of the position like President. There doesn’t really seem to be a need to use it for anyone other than the guy in charge, and certainly not if they quit or was kicked out ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/2 "2012-01-18T13:27:21Z")
Here’s everything you need to know: > **[How to Address a Former/Retired Official - Use of Title, Write Name of](https://www.formsofaddress.info/former/)** > > Former Official - How to Address a Former or Retired Official, Use of Former Title, write name of, email, greet, introduce, what to call In brief, if it’s a title where there can only be one holder at a time (President, Governor, mayor, CEO), then former titleholders aren’t properly referred to by the title (although, in practice, they often are, as your examples of ‘Speaker Gingrich’ or ‘Governor Palin’). If it’s a title where there can be multiple holders at a time, the former titleholders may still be referred to by the title. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/3 "2012-01-18T14:03:46Z")
When Roy Romer took over as Superintendent of LAUSD, he insisted on being called Governor Romer. After correcting our union president during a meeting, the union prez told him, “You’re not MY Governor.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/4 "2012-01-18T15:18:13Z")
It’s considered a sign of respect. And when it comes to respect, it’s not something you can demand, it’s something that is given. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/5 "2012-01-18T15:28:31Z")
If someone has held multiple offices (very common), you use the highest ranking one. Hence, Obama will always be “President Obama”, not “Senator Obama”. You can imagine that this is important in the debate format, as the candidates are trying to impress people. “Governor Romney” sounds much better than “Mr. Romney” and emphasizes the fact that he was a governor. It wouldn’t surprise me if the candidates handlers make sure this is the form of address as part of their agreement to participate in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/6 "2012-01-18T15:48:27Z")
When George Washinton left office, he specifically wanted to be called “General Washington”, as he felt that there should only be one President of the United States at a time. See this Washington Post article: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/20/AR2009012003558.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/20/AR2009012003558.html) ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/7 "2012-01-18T15:56:32Z")
also, see this former thread: [What would Bill Clinton's title have been had Hillary become President? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=545709) ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/8 "2012-01-18T16:21:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I saw the replay of one of the GOP debates and the moderator still referred to Newt as Speaker Gingrich, even though he was drummed out in disgrace and hadn’t held an elected position in over a decade. Would it really have been so wrong to just call him Mr. Gingrich? He doesn’t seem to deserve that title anymore. I know they’re called “debates,” but let’s be real: they’re chat shows with hustings festooned with red-white-and-blue bunting. Anderson wants good ratings, and that turns on getting some key guests. And those guests will make demands (“a case of Voss water in the green room and call me Speaker!”). Is this any skin off Anderson’s ass? No, it is not. So that’s what happens. But I wouldn’t draw any inferences about protocol from it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/9 "2012-01-18T16:41:49Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I know they’re called “debates,” but let’s be real: they’re chat shows with hustings festooned with red-white-and-blue bunting. > > Anderson wants good ratings, and that turns on getting some key guests. And those guests will make demands (“a case of Voss water in the green room and call me Speaker!”). Is this any skin off Anderson’s ass? No, it is not. So that’s what happens. > > But I wouldn’t draw any inferences about protocol from it. Except that it is protocol to refer to those candidates using their titles. That’s what protocol means-- the proper way to do something, according to accepted rules of practice in formal settings. If Newt was in your living room, you wouldn’t have to call him Mr. Speaker if you didn’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/10 "2012-01-18T16:42:50Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > When George Washinton left office, he specifically wanted to be called “General Washington”, as he felt that there should only be one President of the United States at a time. > > See this Washington Post article: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/20/AR2009012003558.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/20/AR2009012003558.html) And, at least in the US, members of the US military that have taken official Retirement (not resigned, not discharged, but been officially retired) officially retain their rank. That is, a retired US Navy Captain is officially still a Navy Captain. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/11 "2012-01-18T16:48:58Z")
Random data point: At the time of his death, George Armstrong Custer was a Lt. Colonel. However, the custom at the time was to refer to an officer using the highest rank they had ever held. Since Custer had been a Major General when he commanded a larger force in the Civil War, his proper title was General Custer, even though that was not his rank. That’s essentially the form that I follow. If someone has ever been a professor, I call them Professor, even if they don’t work in that field any more. Same with Reverend, Governor, or what have you. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/12 "2012-01-18T16:52:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Except that it is protocol to refer to those candidates using their titles. That’s what protocol means-- the proper way to do something, according to accepted rules of practice in formal settings. If Newt was in your living room, you wouldn’t have to call him Mr. Speaker if you didn’t want to. Formal settings are defined as affairs of state. Reality shows are not affairs of state. Debates are reality shows. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/13 "2012-01-18T18:05:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If someone has held multiple offices (very common), you use the highest ranking one. Hence, Obama will always be “President Obama”, not “Senator Obama”.. He’d be “Senator Obama” because of the “Only one President at a time” rule. Just like Eisenhower after he stopped being President was “General Eisenhower”. The current and recent Republican candidates would be addressed as: Mr. Romney Representative Paul Representative Gingrich Governor Perry Senator Santorum Representative Bachmann Ambassador Huntsman ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/14 "2012-01-18T19:07:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He’d be “Senator Obama” because of the “Only one President at a time” rule. Just like Eisenhower after he stopped being President was “General Eisenhower”. > > Mr. Romney > Representative Paul > Representative Gingrich > Governor Perry > Senator Santorum > Representative Bachmann > Ambassador Huntsman Maybe according to formal etiquette, but practically speaking, they are referred to as: Governors Romney, Huntsman, and Perry, Congressman/woman Paul and Bachmann, Senator Santorum, and Speaker Gingrich. To their face, people even go one step further, referring to Gingrich as just “Mr. Speaker” as if he still is. Paul occasionally gets “Dr. Paul”, though mostly informally, and Huntsman gets Ambassador rarely. When Obama leaves the White House, he will still be called “Mr. President” to his face, and people will either say “President” or “former-President”. If formal etiquette says different than the actual expected convention, then that tells you all you need to know about the importance of formal etiquette. Howard Dean’s an interesting case. He’s a medical doctor, a former governor, and a former chairman of the DNC. He’s most commonly referred to as “Governor”, but some refer to him as “Chairman Dean”, I assume on the assessment that head of a national party is a higher achievement than governor of a single state, or sometimes Dr. Dean in the same manner as Paul does. But chairman of the DNC is essentially just the leader of a club. I’ve always wondered what the limits are. Could a politician insist on being called “Chairman” if they’re claim is only on the chairmanship of the weekly poker game among their group of friends? ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/15 "2012-01-18T22:05:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He’d be “Senator Obama” because of the “Only one President at a time” rule. Just like Eisenhower after he stopped being President was “General Eisenhower”. > > The current and recent Republican candidates would be addressed as: > > Mr. Romney > Representative Paul > Representative Gingrich > Governor Perry > Senator Santorum > Representative Bachmann > Ambassador Huntsman I believe Romney should still be “Governor Romney”, per the George Washington rule, as there are still many Governors inside the US. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/16 "2012-01-19T02:48:44Z")
Harry Truman said he was looking forward, upon leaving the White House, to reclaiming the simple dignity of an ordinary citizen again, as “Mr. Truman.” I wish more public officials followed his example nowadays. Hanging on for dear life to the title of a job you no longer hold carries more than a whiff of elitism and/or aristocracy to me. ---
**Author:** ![3waygeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/e95f7d/32.png) [@3waygeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3waygeek)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/17 "2012-01-20T19:02:11Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He’d be “Senator Obama” because of the “Only one President at a time” rule. Since when has that rule been in effect? I was explicitly taught the exact opposite – that once you become President, you are always referred to as such even after your term expires – in grade school. However, that was almost 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/18 "2012-01-22T14:01:11Z")
I’ve wondered if it depends a lot on how pompous the former office holder wants to be, or how pompous a candidate’s supporters want to treat him. When Jimmy Carter ran for prez in 1976, I don’t recall anybody ever called him Governor Carter – not even his own campaign staff (that I ever heard anyway). When Ronald Reagan ran for prez in 1980, his campaign staff ALWAYS referred to him as Governor Reagan, and of course everyone else followed suit (or at least all other Republicans did). ETA: And when Bill Clinton ran for prez, I don’t recall ever hearing anyone refer to him as Governor Clinton either. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/19 "2012-01-22T14:10:33Z")
It does seem to be a topic for debate. Curiously, the correct address for a sitting POTUS is mister (or assuming a woman, … damn I guess it would be 'madam, right). In any conversations I have heard recently, it is always Mister Obama, not President Obama. Maybe I am missing something, but General Washington’s precedents do hold even now. It is Mister President. So, I assume you just drop the ‘President’ part of the title and go on as you were. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886/20 "2012-01-22T16:27:44Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > It does seem to be a topic for debate. > > Curiously, the correct address for a sitting POTUS is mister (or assuming a woman, … damn I guess it would be 'madam, right). > > In any conversations I have heard recently, it is always Mister Obama, not President Obama. > Maybe I am missing something, but General Washington’s precedents do hold even now. > > It is Mister President. > > So, I assume you just drop the ‘President’ part of the title and go on as you were. How times have changed. The first president that I heard refered to as Mr. was Mr Nixon and it was by people who did not respect him. It was a way of saying he was doing such a crappy job he did not deserve the title. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/referring-to-people-by-their-former-jobs-title/609886.md?page=2)