# Refining the Atheist Argument **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966 "2010-01-14T18:59:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/81 "2010-01-15T16:42:47Z")
Why would there be a downside to picking one and seeing versus winning nothing by not trying at all? Even if you thought the voucher did not exist in the drawing, you can be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/82 "2010-01-15T16:46:34Z")
Opportunity cost, for one thing. Instead of picking envelopes you could be doing something else (_anything_ else) with your time. And again, there’s no benefit to it unless you’re already trusting the directions written in there. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/83 "2010-01-15T16:48:17Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > … Remember you can read all these doctrines and eliminate many of them because way to silly or too recent. It would be like clues on each envelope and then you decide on one. You’re eliminating them on what grounds exactly? Is it not just as possible that the one true doctrine is silly, because that’s the way the (g)God(s) want it, and the doctrine is recent because the (g)God(s) got tired of folks following older incorrect doctrines? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/84 "2010-01-15T16:54:19Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Why would there be a downside to picking one and seeing versus winning nothing by not trying at all? Even if you thought the voucher did not exist in the drawing, you can be wrong. 1. For most of those envelopes, you don’t just get to pick one for free-you have to practically trade your whole life for it. 2. You have no firsthand evidence that there is anything in _any_ of the envelopes. Picking any of those envelopes is akin to a stranger coming up to you with a million envelopes and telling you that one of the envelopes contains a million dollars, and you can buy one for only ten thousand dollars. Oooh! What a great deal! As with your deal, the cost is too high, and no one can verify that there is actually any payoff at all. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/85 "2010-01-15T17:00:16Z")
Well that is easy to answer, since salvation is free it is the best deal for the money, clearly, that has ever been. As for what to pick, well how about doctrine you would like, such as do unto others as you would want done to you? I can get into that with no drawbacks at all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/86 "2010-01-15T17:09:30Z")
How is it free? Every major religion has rules - even mine forbids hot dogs (usually) And salvation from what? You have to assume people need to be saved for that to be an issue in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/87 "2010-01-15T17:11:43Z")
**Silverstreak Wonder** , what if the only way to win is to not pick any envelope? (God wants people to think for themselves.) What if everyone wins automatically, regardless of what they do? (Everyone goes to heaven, regardless of their belief.) What if everyone loses automatically, regardless of what they do? (Everyone goes to hell, regardless of their belief.) What if the prize is distributed totally randomly, independent of what people do? (God is a capricious bastard.) What if you’re only given the prize if the prize wasn’t the only reason you picked an envelope? (God wants you to actually believe in him and not just play stupid guessing games.) I see no reason to consider any of those possibilities any less likely than what you propose. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/88 "2010-01-15T17:20:33Z")
Well, you are still having to pick some course of action, including choosing not to draw, so I don’t get your point. Salvation from what? Well I think death has indeed been scientifically proven, I’d say from that. If you can find a way not to participate in death, now then I might be willing to look at those options. Because of death, you are in the drawing, yes you can opt to pick none of these, but that is still a choice too. You cannot “not participate”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/89 "2010-01-15T17:27:15Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Salvation from what? Well I think death has indeed been scientifically proven, I’d say from that. Nonsense. Some religious people believe they continue to exist after they die, which might be a significant reward if it were proved to happen, but everyone physically expires. Nobody is saved from that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/90 "2010-01-15T17:27:39Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Well, you are still having to pick some course of action, including choosing not to draw, so I don’t get your point. > > Salvation from what? Well I think death has indeed been scientifically proven, I’d say from that. If you can find a way not to participate in death, now then I might be willing to look at those options. Because of death, you are in the drawing, yes you can opt to pick none of these, but that is still a choice too. You cannot “not participate”. As far as I know, in most of the choices you still die first. Got any first hand cites from someone who has picked the right envelope? Out of billions of people so far, surely you can provide us with _one_ “winner”. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/91 "2010-01-15T17:34:16Z")
Yeah, a guy named Christ, who did that and a number of authors then wrote all about it, good reading too. You should check it out. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/92 "2010-01-15T17:35:45Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > As for what to pick, well how about doctrine you would like, such as do unto others as you would want done to you? I can get into that with no drawbacks at all. Sure. So why drag religion into it? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/93 "2010-01-15T17:35:55Z")
So Christ is still alive, then? And Peter and John the Baptist? Maybe you can tell me where they are living? Or what about those popes? They seem pretty devout. Can you show me any living popes other than Benedict XVI? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/94 "2010-01-15T17:41:27Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Yeah, a guy named Christ, who did that and a number of authors then wrote all about it, good reading too. You should check it out. Well, unfortunately, a few of those writers went off in unpleasant tangents, and their readers went to war with readers of other Christ-followers, and a number of devout readers molested children… are you referring solely to the New Testament, and we can ignore anything written after that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/95 "2010-01-15T17:41:51Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Yeah, a guy named Christ, who did that and a number of authors then wrote all about it, good reading too. You should check it out. What about Lazarus Long, from the books of Robert Heinlein? Lives pretty much forever, and he burned all the envelopes. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/96 "2010-01-15T17:47:05Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So, you might ask: ‘Jesus said some good things but why believe he was God?’ Well the first answer I can give is that I like having consistent beliefs, so when Jesus said that the was God and that he planned to rise from the dead, I believe it because I find it easier to believe all of what he said then to believe that he had extraordinary wisdom most of the time but a few brain farts that caused him to spout nonsense part of the time. The only problem with this is that it assumes that we know what Jesus said. But as far as we know, none of what Jesus said was written down during his lifetime (or at least, no such writings have survived). Perhaps the parts about him saying “No one comes to the Father except through me” and such were what the comics people call a “retcon”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/97 "2010-01-15T17:48:36Z")
When I referred to living popes, by the way, I meant _Roman Catholic_ popes. Non-RCC popes like myself don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/98 "2010-01-15T18:02:18Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > Nonsense. Ethics encompasses both right and wrong. I would expect an atheistic perspective to conclude divine absolute morality to be fundamentally flawed. For it to be flawed however, concepts of right and wrong need to exist in the first place. Worrying about “imaginary things” is indeed worrying. Imaginary things like God. “Absolute morality” isn’t a concept that makes any sense. And assuming that a god existed, it would have no more claim to it than we do. > [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Why would there be a downside to picking one and seeing versus winning nothing by not trying at all? Because it’s a waste of time at best. And because in the real world, you don’t “pick a voucher”; you twist your life and thoughts and do your best to twist the lives of and thoughts of others in the name of your fantasy. > [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Yeah, a guy named Christ, who did that and a number of authors then wrote all about it, good reading too. You should check it out. He was a lunatic or a fraud, who got himself killed by imperialist thugs. And in the process helped create the greatest single evil in history: Christianity. A disease which has spread across the world spreading hatred and misery; tirelessly grinding away at all human pleasures and virtues for millennia. Humanity is a lesser thing because of him. Hardly a recommendation. And besides being evil, the Bible is incoherent and mostly dull, not “good reading”. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/99 "2010-01-15T18:02:31Z")
You know the latest in physics says there are other dimensions we cannot sense or see, well what do you know, maybe that is where they are? I can imagine you in 1800 saying, “color pictures and stories and sound, moving invisibly thru trees, walls and right into a box that lights up with no fire in it in my living room, what kind of silly nonsense is that? Science says no such thing could be, and that is that!” In other words maybe you ought explore all those dimensions and missing matter and such before having the opinions you do. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966/100 "2010-01-15T18:05:10Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > In other words maybe you ought explore all those dimensions and missing matter and such before having the opinions you do. Unless you’ve seriously considred building a shrine to Zeus in your home, your statement doesn’t have much weight to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refining-the-atheist-argument/524966.md?page=6)