Refining the Atheist Argument

BTW, to address the OP, I think that an epistemological argument can be useful against certain flavors of theist.

One approach I like to take is to point out that there are lots of different religions and they often make contradictory claims. So obviously MOST religions are wrong about MOST of what they teach (even if some religions might be right about some things).

Since most religions are wrong about most things, how do we separate the false teachings from the true? Revelation is unreliable since many of the false things are claimed to be the product of revelation. Our only recourse is to empirical evidence … .

Since you ask, it seems to me one down side is the leaden and stifling feel that your clear writing has. You seem to be just bristling with resentment for people offering thoughts that you haven’t already heard about. People can express more if they don’t limit themselves to the most elementary possible word that could work. “The moon, like a flower In heaven’s high bower, With silent delight Sits and smiles on the night” is sort of replaceable by “Oh, wow, look at the moon”, but it also sort of isn’t.

Though, you seem to be doing this bristling with an eerie skill that hints you are, as kaylasdad99 suggested, jerking us around. Are you?

Hamster, well one way is look for doctrine that was given long ago, and is still being practiced today since a god ought be interested in keeping his word before the people. Now Egypt was long ago, but the sun god has died out, so scratch that, and so on with the Greek gods. You quickly get to Judaism and a couple of far east religions. So that narrows it a lot. One could argue the east religions are just a message to a different place not accessible to the others, which was correct.

You misunderstand the point of specific vocabulary.
We do not use the word “solipsist” to confuse you (or anyone else) nor to obfuscate meaning. It is not some arcane word only the initiates of the Secret Atheist Society get to learn. It is however much simpler and shorter to define “those people who think that nothing can be proven to exist beyond the existence of their own conscience & thoughts” as “solipsists”, and use that word from then on. Lucky for us, people did that ages ago so we don’t have to invent a new word for the concept.
Just as, for example, a sailor will use “starboard” as a shortcut for “to the right, no I don’t mean your right you lubber, I mean the right side of the boat if we both agree that the pointy end is forward”.
“Regular words” are the vague ones, and the ones that complexify dialogue.

I would also add that, frankly, if you can’t be arsed to look up things you don’t understand, you shouldn’t expect your intellectual laziness to be taken seriously or gain you points on a forum at least nominally dedicated to fighting ignorance, starting with one’s own.

Mate, he’s not going to know that one.

Meh. The best argument for atheism is that theism is unable (and indeed uninterested in) proving any of its claims, so all tenets of all supernatural religions are equally arbitrary and a rational person has no reason to buy into any of them.

Jeez, I learned the word “solipsism” studying 1984 when I was 14. (Ontology and epistemiology I learned from the SDMB though).

My personal most compelling argument for atheism is “There are hundreds of religions out there, and despite what liberal religious people say, most are mutually exclusive. Prove that yours is more valid than theirs - without self-reference.” It’s that bit in italics that usually proves impossible.

ETA: this argument is made better, and in fewer words, by Bryan directly above my post.

My first most compelling argument is “that’s just silly.” It applies well to most religious stuff I encounter. My second-most compelling argument is very similar to yours, though, except that I point at the myriad other religions and use them as a basis for the statement “humans have a tendency to have what may be called religious experiences, but their interpretation of these experiences is wildly unreliable as a source of objective fact about anything.” Then I ask what makes theist X so special that their interpretations are reliable, given that they are a human, and humans’ interpretations of such things aren’t reliable.

Ok, that’s the second sentence of the Wikipedia article on solipsism. The first is “Solipsism is the philosophical idea that one’s own mind is all that exists.” What’s so complicated about that one?

Dioptre, let me first just say that I greatly appreciate your willingness to put together a careful, thoughtful, and polite argument. It’s one I disagree with totally, not surprisingly, but I can certainly say that the board would be a better place if everyone was as mannerly as you.

So with that said, on to the debunking.

You say, “Faith can be contrasted with the scientific method”. I’d certainly agree with that. You say that the “The scientific method as a way of knowing about things has itself been empirically confirmed as effective”. Well, I’d agree that it’s been confirmed as effective as a way of knowing about scientific topics. And what is a scientific topic? I’d be happy to define it by the same words you used in that paragraph. Science is about “the behavior of the physical world”. So, in other words, if I want to know how hydrochloric acid reacts with sodium hydroxide, or where the continent of South America was fifty million years ago, or whether atmospheric carbon dioxide is causing the planet to overheat, I use the scientific method. (Or, more likely, consult someone else who uses the scientific method.)

But there are plentiful topics that are not scientific topics. If I want to know whether my girlfriend loves me, or how my neighbors are doing, or whether my co-workers are trustworthy, or how the American people will react in a given situation, I do not use the scientific method, nor consult someone else who does. For those topics, I have to engage the higher faculties of the human mind. If I want to know how someone feels, it’s not sufficient to merely ask them. It’s not sufficient to ask them multiple times and make sure the results are replicable. It would not be sufficient (even if it were possible) to have an expert write a peer-reviewed journal article on the topic. Things that occur at the human mental level, which is higher than the physical level, cannot be determined by processes designed for the physical level. Consider the things that truly matter in life: love, beauty, friendship, peace, agreement, satisfaction, self-actualization, charity, determination, and so forth. All of these things are invisible. I can experience my own version of those things directly, but I’ll never have direct experience of anybody’s else version of those things. All I can get is indirect evidence that other people may be experience those things. But to interpret that indirect evidence, I need to give up any use of “objective”, “scientific”, “replicable” techniques. Instead, I must acknowledge the uniqueness of each individual. Identical words or actions from two individuals may mean two completely different things. Only someone who knows an individual truly and deeply can hope to correctly interpret their words and actions to achieve a good understanding of what happens in their mind.

So in response to you saying “The scientific method as a way of knowing about things has itself been empirically confirmed as effective”, I say that it’s been empirically confirmed about empirical things, but not about all things. Science has produced excellent understanding of physics, geology, biology, and so forth. But when people have tried to nail down the human mind with scientific precision, they’ve produced a carnival of errors: phrenology, craniology, Freudianism, collective unconscious, social Darwinism, behaviorism, evolutionary psychology, and the list goes on. For the higher topics, we need higher methods than the scientific method.

It is, of course, readily evident that there is a possibility of error when we apply the higher methods to the higher topics. I can never be absolutely certain how my girlfriend actually feels about me; she may be dissembling. I can never truly know what’s going on in my neighbor’s mind; they may be putting on a facade. But even so, I am a person and I must interact with people, so I must be willing to tackle questions involving the higher levels of human existence despite the possibility of error. As Saint Thomas Aquinas famously said, “the most slender knowledge of the higher things is more desirable than the most certain knowledge of the lower things”. So if I arbitrarily limited myself to studying only things where knowledge was certain, I’d lose out on all the most important knowledge in human life.

So then I must be willing to accept some things as true even in the absence of certainty. In other words, I must have faith in some things. I can’t go around living without it entirely. If I’m constantly suspicious of my girlfriend because I can’t be certain of her interior life, then soon I won’t have a girlfriend. If I refuse to engage with friends and relatives just because I can’t be certain of them, then that will increase the distance between me and them.

So now on to the question of why I have faith in Jesus Christ. You say “almost the entire portion of revealed knowledge which has been subject to observation and measurement has been shown to be incorrect”. Mostly true. (Although I could show you some interesting, measurable facts that religious people did know long before science found them out.) But regarding things that aren’t subject to observation and measurement, faith in Jesus Christ has been established as a very reliable method of knowing. We only need consider the teachings of Christ in the Gospels.

Jesus said that we should love our enemies. At the time, people generally believed that hatred, violence, and blood feuds were the right way to deal with enemies. Jesus said that women should be treated as moral and mental equals to men. At the time, people generally believed that women were inferior to men. Jesus said that children should be treated respectfully and lovingly. At the time, children were viewed as property and often subject to violence. Jesus said that people should knock down barriers between cities, tribes, and nations. Jesus said that the poor should be given good standing, while the rich were the cause of the world’s problems. Jesus said that sinners should be forgiven. Jesus said the sick and injured should not be cast aside, but instead should be loved, treated with dignity, and cured. And Jesus said a great deal more, almost all of it contradicting what was generally believed at the time, yet which is now widely accepted by the people at large, including both secular and followers of many religions.

So, you might ask: ‘Jesus said some good things but why believe he was God?’ Well the first answer I can give is that I like having consistent beliefs, so when Jesus said that the was God and that he planned to rise from the dead, I believe it because I find it easier to believe all of what he said then to believe that he had extraordinary wisdom most of the time but a few brain farts that caused him to spout nonsense part of the time. But more to the point in this thread, I have faith in Jesus because I have found that faith is a successful method of knowing. That was the point that Paul was trying to make in the Epistle to the Hebrews with his long litany of people who “lived by faith” during Israel’s history. Yet, an equally modern version of the argument could be made with modern people. Look at Desmond Tutu, at Martin Luther King, at Mother Teresa, at Dietrich Bonhoeffer, at John Wesley, at George Fox. They all lived by faith too, and they created massive, positive changes in the world, which nearly everyone of any religious viewpoint now agrees that those changes were a good thing. So then, I conclude that living by faith is a quite reliable method of living.

I don’t think that’s a workable criteria. Human beings were around a long time before the monotheistic religions were invented. Why wasn’t the God of Abraham interested in “keeping his word before the people” 10,000 years ago? Or for the entire history of the Americas before the 15th Century? If you’re going to use “keeping his word before the people” as a way to assess religious truth then no religion measures up.

Many Hindus say there is more than one god. The Jews say there is just one.

The Christians say that Jesus was God. The Muslims say he wasn’t.

Which of these beliefs is correct? And how do you know?

That seems awfully trusting. If Socrates or Aristotle or Plato had said they were gods, would their other work tend to prove this claim?

Bad reason. Most of modern physics is just silly - or it would be if there weren’t tons of experimental evidence showing that the silly hypotheses seem to be valid.

Pretty big ‘if’ there…

Pish and tosh. If you read Dear Abby and that ilk, you will know that there are many people who would have better lives if they used the scientific method in relationships. Your girlfriend loves you is the hypothesis. If she does love you, she will say it, she will want to be around you, and she will treat you reasonably well. If she seldom comes home until 5 am, we might falsify the hypothesis that she loves you, right? The scientific method does not require lab coats or publishing in peer reviewed journals, by the way.

How are your neighbors doing? That is observation and data collection. You test whether your coworkers are trustworthy all the time. And people make up models of how the American public behaves all the time, and tests them in experiments. My daughter does this in grad school, and is very frustrated when the results show that responses supporting her hypothesis may be due to chance with too high a probability.

Might I remind you that those who had faith in Bernie Madoff, or faith that the guy with the Brooklyn Bridge deed is trustworthy, or faith that their girlfriends who never come home are not cheating on them, are considered to be boobs.

And as for your last sentence, there are plenty of drugs that work at the physical level and change things at the higher mental level. Hormones too. Don’t you get tetchy when you get hungry?

Yep. Science is common sense made systematic.

Every day we make observations about the world and people around us, come up with explanations for our observations, and then test those explanations against new observations to confirm or falsify them.

Say you’re driving to work and some guy cuts you off in traffic. An observation!

You decide that he’s a jerk. An explanation!
*
But then you see him turn sharply into the emergency entrance to the hospital.* Your explanation has been falsified! He’s not a jerk, he’s got a medical emergency!

The only difference between common sense and science is that science is more careful and methodical. But, from an epistemological perspective, the process is the same.

If you’re claiming that morals and ethics are falsifiable you’d be going aganist the generally accepted philosophical tenents.

I don’t believe they are.

Unless there isn’t a way to test them, like with morality and ethics. I’ve said this before in other threads, but I think of religion itself is the human abstraction of morals and ethics based on human experience.

Which morals and ethics? “Don’t kill people because God/mommy says not to” or “Don’t kill people because murder within a society has negative effects on numerous levels, including a decrease in personal popularity, it incites retaliation which is personally dangerous, it decreases the feeling of safety and security of the people in the area, it attracts negative police attention, and it deprives society of the productivity of the individual, to name a few. These effects may be mitigated if the person killed is agreed to have been themselves acting in a threatening manner, and/or the person in question is deemed to be a member of an outsider class such as a person living in another country that the people in your class and/or society are unfamiliar with. Various other factors may also apply…”?

Morals and ethics are social constructions. So they’re certainly falsifiable within the framework of consensus that causes them to exist in the first place.

Consider the statement: “Murder is wrong.” Outside of a particular social context the statement is meaningless. No truth value can be assigned to it. But within a specific context we can absolutely validate or falsify it.

In a similar manner the statement “That dollar is counterfeit” is meaningless outside a particular social context. There is no culture-independent standard for determining whether a bill is genuine or counterfeit. In fact, even the terms “genuine” and “counterfeit” (like “right” and “wrong”) are meaningless without a social context. However, within a particular context we can absolutely say whether or not a particular bill is counterfeit.