Reforming the legal system against stupidity, why is it so hard?

HH I think you mean well (but I am reconsidering), but honestly ENOUGH with the plane. Stop! Please.

If I wasn’t so busy, I would open a pit thread dedicated to you and your Piper taildragger, not because I think you are a jerk, but I am just sick to death of this Cleavland steamer case.

So far, all I can gather from your voluminous posts is that you think juries are sometimes wrong, (newsflash, nothing is perfect) and you wish they were 100% right (with right being defined as whatever outcome YOU think the case deserves)

You also seem to think that we should have expert juries. You have, to my mind, failed to elaborate on this in any significant way. Clearly the logistical problems with such a system would be immense.

OK, who’s got a case we can talk about? (never mind. see below)

Rhummy - I am also tired of Cleveland, but SG wanted an explanation, so I apologized for re-launching it.

I guess it comes to this: I am sorry to have wasted your time.
I will try to refrain from offering an opinion on how law should operate until such time as I have been admitted to the Bar.

bye for now.

Please don’t do that. The worst thing that can happen is that any field that affects the public is abandoned to the practitioners in that field.

Lay people should not only be involved in legal issues such as tort reform, they should control the legal field, through such mechanisms as the democratic process.

But they should also know what they are talking about when they get involved in legal issues.

That’s all we are trying to say.

Sua

They don’t have to know what they’re talking about, but they should at least make the effort to find out what they’re talking about. This one hasn’t even tried–he just spouts off random things that he thinks support his position (whatever that may be) without bothering to understand what they mean in the first place. I enjoy discussing and arguing the law with nonlawyers. I have not enjoyed this particular conversation.

“”"""“it’s called ‘assumption of risk’ folks - you get to decide to pick up the coffee, fly the ‘defective’ plane, roll the SUV, ad infintum - you get to screw up, and you get to deal with the consequences”"""""

I believe that law is an attempt (i hope) to articulate a social contract - mutual trust for mutual benefit; otherwise we’d all be locked in isolation cabins and totally up a creek. One aspect that must be taken into account by the legal system; is that people actually do wacky stuff like:

Calling in teams of high priced attourney’s to determine whether or not an additional 54 cent safety feature being excluded from the production line will make more or less money for them than the lawsuits that result from negligence, even in the instances that death was incurred!

There is a very peculiar propery imbued in the logic of those who reach the level to ponder these decisions - and the legal system attempts to address it, while maintaining the beneifits that such individuals afford the national prestige and/or survivability. I don’t think it would be difficult to code this type of personality out of the currency feild; but aparently legislation is not interested to do so. Freedom of speech and all…

-Justhink

I’ve never been a soldier. Can I be in your unit Sergeant Gelding? I’ve heard its fun to frag a Sergeant, or is this a don’t ask don’t tell policy? This thread is so fubar. Snafu. Gezuntite. Comes out loose.

Law is an even scarier place if you’re an actuary. The very existence of our company - very profitable, regarded as leaders in the field, almost doubling in size per year and Professional Services Provider of the Year 2001 - is actually under threat because we may not be able to afford the Professional Indemnity cover next year.

The problems all stem from the fact that a jury trial is used in the US to try corporate cases. The trouble is that most jurors:[ul][li]Do not understand what we do [/li][li]Have never sat for jury duty before[/li][li]Do not understand insurance or jargon[/li][li]Do not understand statistics[/li][li]Cannot comprehend large numbers[/li][li]Suffer from “math anxiety”[/ul]This basically means that we’re doomed the moment we open our mouths. How can we explain our highly technical reasoning to people that will not only not understand it but don’t even want to understand it?[/li]
The following are real quotes from jurors that were key thoughts in deciding against the actuary:

The fallacies and lack of understanding as to how our job works that are implicit in those statements are just frightening. Enough to make me seriously consider whether I should have got into the field at all.

In the UK there are no juries for corporate cases. When corporation X sues corporation Y it is decided by a specialist judge. As such there are fewer poor decisions of this nature.

pan

Kabbes That is very interesting, I hope some of our American legal gurus will weigh in with their comments. It is possible to have a bench trial in America if neither party wants a jury, say because neither side wants to run the risks you have pointed out. In cases where it is an individual vs. a coporation I would guess the individual almost always wants a jury.

These tend to be situations where a corporation sues a consultancy for negligent advice. In such instances the corporation wants a jury because of the factors I identified above - they know that as a consequence juries tend to be very harsh on actuaries.

pan

kabbes, maybe you could explain to us why those questions are such bad questions.

You haven’t given very much background data on what the dispute is about, but as I gather, the corporation hired an actuarial consultant, provided bogus data, and then sued the actuary for the bad advice. Is that right? Why wasn’t the defense: “garbage in, garbage out” the Plaintiff committed fraud in providing garbage data they knew would give a result they needed to defraud others, required us to use it, and sued us for th result. During litigation we discovered that they knew the correct data all along, we got it from them and ran these results…

I might also suggest an arbitration clause in future consulting contracts if you really think the jury let you down.

Kabbes, I don’t know enough about the duties undertaken by a consulting actuary to give you any sort of answer or even to discuss the particular problem you raise. If you could elaborate a little it might help. While I hate to admit it, I have the same question as IAS–why do those questions from a juror show that the juror doesn’t understand what is going on?

Firstly let me say that I’d hate to give the impression that I personally have been sued. I haven’t.

Now, the reason why those questions are so devastating for an actuary to contemplate when considering juror understanding is not necessarily an easy one to explain. After all, that’s the exact problem folks. They seem straightforward enough on the face of it but they betray a real lack of understanding as to what our job involves.

In essence, you see, my job is all about getting crap data, doing the best I can with it and giving a heavily caveated answer or range of answers. I rely on the fact that if the data is crap, I can state in the report “the data is crap, you shouldn’t rely on this answer” and all will be hunky dory.

What the juror surveys are showing us is that the jurors expect us, as actuaries, to essentially be gods. These caveats aren’t good enough for them. As far as they are concerned, an answer is an answer.

But our industy just isn’t like that. All we can do is give a point estimate and an idea of the uncertainty. And generally speaking the client knows that this is better than nothing so runs with it.

It’s the middle phrase - about aggressive checking of the data - that particularly worries me. That simply isn’t our job. The client gives us the data they have and we work with it. We don’t go into the clients’ data systems and start pulling it to pieces to ascertain its accuracy. That would be a waste of resources, since it isn’t what we’re good at. It would be a waste of the clients’ money, since it isn’t what they’re paying for. And when the deadlines are tight - and the deadlines are always tight - it would be a colossal waste of time. So we do the best with the data we have and declare in the report that we have relied on its accuracy.

Walk a mile in these shoes. Show those phrases to any working actuary and watch them quake in their boots.

I could try to explain a little more, but I hope I’ve given you a feel for what the issue is here.

pan

Well, let’s look for a sec at the societal costs.

Start with the premise that healthy people tend to be far more productive than injured or unhealthy people. A society with physically healthy people will be more economically healthy than a society where a significantly larger proportion of its population is injured or unhealthy. Injury and ill health represents a very real economic cost, which can be determined in comparisons of GNP. Brundtland and the WHO have been pushing this quite strongly.

So there you are, with this ongoing cost to society of injured and unhealthy people not pulling their weight. What can you do about it? A combination of litigation, insurance, and regulation.

In the USA, corps are kept in line by litigation more so than in many other nations. In particular, massive punitive damages out of all proportion to the injury are awarded to reflect the harm done and harm potentially done to other persons but not brought to court. This way relatively minor injuries which otherwise might not be litigated are encouraged to be litigated in hopes of a large settlement, and the threat of such a settlement encourages corps to not let little things slip by simply because the degree of injury in a large number of incidents would be minor. Thus the McDonalds coffee award. If the award were in proportion to the injury, McDonalds would not have lowered the temperature of their coffee to a more reasonable level. Because the award took into account the estimated frequency of similar spills and the ensuing minor, non-litigated injuries, the punitive portion of the award was set high enough to deter the corp from continuing it’s unsafe practices. The cost of litigation of this sort gets built into the product and passed on to the consumer.

What if such litigation is not permitted? Then insurance plays a more dominant role. Let’s face it, if you live in a county where corps are kept in line, you do not go overboard on insurance, whereas if you live in a country where corps are not as responsible, you load up on insurance. The cost of this is borne two ways: by the individual, and/or by the government.

I can’t think of any country where corps are out of line but still most individuals are well off enough to load up on insurance. It just doesn’t work that way. Thus most countries either take the economic hit of injured and unhealthy people and let the corps do their own thing (e.g. many developing nations), or the governments provide the insurance (most developed nations). To keep costs in line, governments which provide insurance do two things. First, they streamline systemic costs by introducing no-fault regimes where feasible, ranging anywhere from universal medical care to social and disability insurance to statutory accident benefits. The public pays these costs through taxes. Second, governments regulate to keep corps in line by setting standards which ultimately help protect the public. These costs are passed on to the consumers.

Obviously there is a combination of GNP hit, litigation, and regulation in all nations. When comparing apples with apples, the USA turns more toward litigation while other developed nations turn more toward public insurance and regulation. Developing nations just take the GNP hit and continue struggling.

So when Peace comes out with Henry VI, Part II, Act IV, Scene II, I wonder if he actually thought it through, for the USA model is one which places proportionately more of the cost of injured and unhealthy people on consumers rather than on the general public. It’s either pay the lawyers and plaintiffs (most American’s preference), or pay more taxes and suffer more regulation (my personal preference), or start enjoying third world living unless you are one of the luck few. I doubt if Peace thought through his economic regime any more than Shakespeare’s rebel and butcher did.

Whoops, make that HH, not Peace. Sorry.

another truely surreal moment

I’m in awe