# Refugee judge: You're not gay, you weren't banging guys at age 14 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 11, 2007, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700 "2007-02-11T03:36:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/21 "2007-02-11T08:37:31Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] Listen, I’m going to say this one more time: there is no way to prove that person X is gay, even if person X is yourself. I have no way to prove that I’m gay, and I never will. [/quote] Bullocks. I can easily prove that I am straight by pointing to the women I’ve had sex with, the relationships I’ve been in, and the oodles of straight dirty videos on my computer. I’m sure you could do the same. [QUOTE=matt\_mcl] Mercifully, I don’t have to, because I’m not standing in front of a heterosexist refugee judge who’s awash in ridiculous stereotypes. [/quote] I think you are bigoted one here. You’ve ascribed all of these anti-gay feelings and beliefs to a Judge that did nothing worse than not believe Mr. Orozco’s story. Heterosexist? What the fuck is heterosexist? Seriously, listen to yourself. [QUOTE=matt\_mcl] Here we have someone who laid out his entire life, and the judge said that she did not think that he was gay because he did not have gay relationships when he was in the US. That is not sufficient reason for judging someone not to be gay. That was the only reason that is being presented for which she disbelieved what he had to say, and it’s insufficient. [/quote] No, she said: “I found the claimant’s many explanations unsatisfactory for why he chose not to pursue same-sex relationships in the U.S. as he alleged it was his intention to do so and he wanted to do so.” That’s it. She didn’t say he wasn’t gay because he didn’t fuck every man that moved. She saw a man that for the first time in his life openly claimed to be gay to gain asylum, and she didn’t believe his reasons for concealing it up to that point. That’s it (as far as I know). [QUOTE=matt\_mcl] This is exactly the stereotype I’m talking about. His lack of sexual experience, which is none of the judge’s business anyway, has no bearing on his sexual orientation! Some gay people get into straight marriages and don’t have gay sex at all until much later in life. Some gay people are celibate. Some gay people don’t come out until after they have sex, others come out well before they lose their virginity. And this is all on top of the fact that his living situation was not especially conducive to getting laid. [/quote] What the hell are you talking about? It’s not an anti-gay stereotype to think that it’s odd that a **straight or gay** 19 year old hasn’t experimented sexually. Good lord, is there anything you don’t see an anti-gay bias in? [QUOTE=matt\_mcl] But this is exactly the distinction I was drawing before: he didn’t just turn up and say “I’m gay and from Nicaragua, let me in.” He is fleeing specific things, to wit, family violence, persecution, etc. He gave a prolonged and involved account of himself, and of the specifics of what he suffered at the hands of his father and what he did to get out of there. And the judge simply said, I don’t think you’re gay to begin with, with no discussion of the merits that his story would have had, had she believed he was gay. You didn’t have sex, therefore you are not gay, therefore nothing you’ve told me is true. [/QUOTE] No, what she said was “I determined on a balance of probabilities the claimant did not pursue same-sex relationships in whatever capacity … because he is not a homosexual.” She did not say you didn’t have sex, so you’re not gay. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/22 "2007-02-11T10:04:03Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Bullocks. I can easily prove that I am straight by pointing to the women I’ve had sex with, the relationships I’ve been in, and the oodles of straight dirty videos on my computer. [/QUOTE] If that’s the standard of proof, then I’m a lesbian. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/23 "2007-02-11T11:51:25Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Bullocks. I can easily prove that I am straight by pointing to the women I’ve had sex with, the relationships I’ve been in, and the oodles of straight dirty videos on my computer. I’m sure you could do the same. [/QUOTE] So could Ted Haggard. It seems to me if the kid were lying about being gay, he would have lied and said he pursued gay relationships while in America. What do you want, a picture of him with a dick in his mouth? Would that prove it? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/24 "2007-02-11T12:11:04Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] Listen, I’m going to say this one more time: there is no way to prove that person X is gay, even if person X is yourself. I have no way to prove that I’m gay, and I never will. [/QUOTE] Look, I’m no immigration lawyer, and I’m sure as fuck not a Canadian immigration lawyer, but my general understanding of the asylum process is that the applicant has an affirmative duty to show that they are at a particular and specific risk to persecution or violence if they return to their home country. So, simply saying, “my home country is a shithole,” isn’t sufficient to gain asylum, and although Nicaragua may be sexually repressive, as far as I know, gays aren’t being rounded up and hung from street lamps by mobs. Also, I’m confident that Nicaragua’s a pretty large place, and as a well bodied young man, he won’t have to be chillin’ with pops if he returns there. So, again, you don’t have to prove that you’re gay for asylum, but you have to be able to point to _some_ sort of evidence to why you really cannot return home. That said, I disagree with American and Canadian restrictions on immigration; I think he should be allowed to stay in Canada or else I’d welcome him in America, but right now, it is what it is. A comparable example might be the US army’s, “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy. I can guarantee you that more than a single Marine has appeared before his base commander and pronounced, “I’m gay, I want to have sex with men,” but that alone certainly won’t get them out. What does it take, a photo with a dick in their mouth? Yeah, pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/25 "2007-02-11T13:41:53Z")
[QUOTE=threemae] So, simply saying, “my home country is a shithole,” isn’t sufficient to gain asylum, and although Nicaragua may be sexually repressive, as far as I know, gays aren’t being rounded up and hung from street lamps by mobs. Also, I’m confident that Nicaragua’s a pretty large place, and as a well bodied young man, he won’t have to be chillin’ with pops if he returns there. [/quote] Incidentally, I put a link to this in the OP, describing the situation under which not only gay people but also their defenders are subject to arrest and conviction, there are actually cases of this (i.e. it’s not just one of those laws that are on the books and never get enforced), and they’re actually trying to increase the penalties. Nicaragua is different from most other Latin American countries in this way. > [@treis](#): > > Bullocks. I can easily prove that I am straight by pointing to the women I’ve had sex with, the relationships I’ve been in, and the oodles of straight dirty videos on my computer. I’m sure you could do the same. I don’t know why I’m even bothering with this nonsense, but there are tons of gay guys who’ve made it with women and have straight porn. Besides, maybe you downloaded all that porn just to try to make your story more convincing, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? > [@](#): > > Heterosexist? What the fuck is heterosexist? Seriously, listen to yourself. Heterosexism is the state of operating under the default assumption of heterosexuality, and may include operating under a set of stereotypical assumptions about gay and lesbian people. If you don’t know a vocabulary item, you could just ask, and leave off the little flip at the end. > [@](#): > > That’s it. She didn’t say he wasn’t gay because he didn’t fuck every man that moved. She saw a man that for the first time in his life openly claimed to be gay to gain asylum, and she didn’t believe his reasons for concealing it up to that point. Are you even reading the quotations I’m supplying? The reason she is stated to have given in post 14 is that he didn’t have homosexual relationships when he was in the US, which is what I said. And “claimed for the first time to be gay?” He started living as an openly gay man as soon as he got to Toronto. Before that, how can I get it through to you that one is unlikely to start putting on reenactments of La Cage aux Folles when one is non-status, teenaged, frightened, abused, and being cared for by Seventh-Day Adventists? _I_ would certainly have been disinclined to come out in that circumstance, that’s for damned sure. > [@](#): > > What the hell are you talking about? It’s not an anti-gay stereotype to think that it’s odd that a straight or gay 19 year old hasn’t experimented sexually. Good lord, is there anything you don’t see an anti-gay bias in? No, that in itself isn’t anti-gay, it’s just stupid. What is anti-gay is using this stupid statement as a basis for making a claim about someone’s sexual orientation, especially when you add the circumstances I mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/26 "2007-02-11T13:42:17Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Bullocks. I can easily prove that I am straight by pointing to the women I’ve had sex with, the relationships I’ve been in, and the oodles of straight dirty videos on my computer. I’m sure you could do the same. [/QUOTE] Given his circumstances while he was in the US, how could he have possibly done anything analogous to prove he was gay? Seems to me that given where he was staying it would have been difficult for him to get into any gay relationships and accumulate gay dirty videos while he was south of the border, and even if there was a possibility of doing that, common sense would dictate that he abstain while he was trying to avoid getting booted out of the US. By the way, I’m single and socialize very little (so, I’m a computer nerd 😃 ), and I do not have any dirty videos (straight or otherwise) or dirty pictures on my computer. What does that make me? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/27 "2007-02-11T13:46:24Z")
I for one stand ready to have hot refugee sex with any attractive gay immigrants who need a reference. ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/28 "2007-02-11T13:47:51Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Bullocks. I can easily prove that I am straight by pointing to the women I’ve had sex with, the relationships I’ve been in, and the oodles of straight dirty videos on my computer. I’m sure you could do the same. [/QUOTE] Not when I was 14 I couldn’t. Could you? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/29 "2007-02-11T13:59:29Z")
Matt hit the nail on the head in his first post. We have a grave problem with our procedure in that one adjudicator is given the power to make a decision that will greatly change, and perhaps end, a person’s life. The nature of many immigration claims is that there is little evidence upon which to hang one’s hat. Having a second adjudicator will help reduce (although not prevent) errors made by ill-informed or biased sole adjudicators. Same goes for having a proper appeal process. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/30 "2007-02-11T14:07:05Z")
Have you tried through Amnesty International yet? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/31 "2007-02-11T14:07:31Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Bullocks. I can easily prove that I am straight by pointing to the women I’ve had sex with, the relationships I’ve been in, and the oodles of straight dirty videos on my computer. I’m sure you could do the same. [/QUOTE] You’ve never heard of being closeted, right? Or the fact that the kid was FOURTEEN? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/32 "2007-02-11T14:08:00Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] The nature of many immigration claims is that there is little evidence upon which to hang one’s hat. [/QUOTE] And _a fortiori_ for refugee claims, as I pointed out earlier. Repressive governments and abusive families don’t tend to give out commemorative certificates of their crimes against the person. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/33 "2007-02-11T14:09:03Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] Have you tried through Amnesty International yet? [/QUOTE] There is or was a gay and lesbian AI branch here in Montreal; I wouldn’t be surprised if they were on top of it, though they tend to work more with political prisoners rather than refugees, in my experience (having written more than one letter to Nicaragua on their behalf, incidentally). ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/34 "2007-02-11T14:27:47Z")
And on related immigration note: \*Should Canada toss the Canada–U.S. “Safe Third Country Agreement”? \* [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8247957#post8247957](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8247957#post8247957) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/35 "2007-02-11T14:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] You’ve never heard of being closeted, right? Or the fact that the kid was FOURTEEN? [/QUOTE] Or being so stressed just trying to get by in life that finding a partner was very low on the list of things to do. ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/36 "2007-02-11T14:47:44Z")
If they needed evidence to back up the guy’s story, why didn’t they ask for evidence of the abuse rather than evidence that the guy is gay. I understand that that might be hard to prove and all. But wouldn’t it be something that’s more objectively provable and even more relevant to why the guy is a refugee? Or is that crazy talk? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/37 "2007-02-11T14:59:02Z")
[QUOTE=Trion] If they needed evidence to back up the guy’s story, why didn’t they ask for evidence of the abuse rather than evidence that the guy is gay. I understand that that might be hard to prove and all. But wouldn’t it be something that’s more objectively provable and even more relevant to why the guy is a refugee? Or is that crazy talk? [/QUOTE] Domestic abuse is not grounds for a refugee claim in Canada. State sanctioned abuse against gays is. If someone provided evidence of the child being beaten for being gay, then that would be very helpful, but what are the odds of the refugee being able to come up with such evidence? Slim to none. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/38 "2007-02-11T15:25:02Z")
Decisions are supposed to be made on evidence, and the burden of proof is only that of the balance of probabilities. [http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/references/legal/all/weighevid/evidence07\_e.htm](http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/references/legal/all/weighevid/evidence07_e.htm) The fellow presented evidence - his sworn word that the tale he told was true. Unless there was evidence presented to the contrary, or evidence presented to impinge his credibility, then the decision should have been made based on his evidence and his evidence alone. From what I have heard in the media so far, no evidence was presented to the contrary, and no evidence presented to impinge his credibility. Therefore, unless there was something presented that we have not heard about, the adjudicator botched the decision by not accepting the evidence and by deciding the matter on something other than the evidence. If the government wanted to change the rules, it could: it could change the burden of proof from “balance of probabilities” to “no reasonable doubt”. It could out and out require independent third party confirmation of an applicant having been abused. But it has chosen not to do so. It has chosen to leave the test at one of a balance of probabilities based on credible evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/39 "2007-02-11T16:02:27Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] Decisions are supposed to be made on evidence, and the burden of proof is only that of the balance of probabilities. [http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/references/legal/all/weighevid/evidence07\_e.htm](http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/references/legal/all/weighevid/evidence07_e.htm). [/QUOTE] To be more precise, make that balance of probabilities or less in some circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700/40 "2007-02-12T04:16:27Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] Decisions are supposed to be made on evidence, and the burden of proof is only that of the balance of probabilities. [http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/references/legal/all/weighevid/evidence07\_e.htm](http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/references/legal/all/weighevid/evidence07_e.htm) The fellow presented evidence - his sworn word that the tale he told was true. Unless there was evidence presented to the contrary, or evidence presented to impinge his credibility, then the decision should have been made based on his evidence and his evidence alone. [/QUOTE] Which would mean, of course, that essentially all refugee claimants would be allowed in. There would be no reason, really, to even have hearings. Sure;ly the balance of the evidence could be found to be against the applicant _if her or his evidence seemed dishonest or extremely unlikely?_ Much hand-wrining and accusations of bigotry are being made here based on, well, very little evidence aside from a news story that’s pretty light on the details. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refugee-judge-youre-not-gay-you-werent-banging-guys-at-age-14/391700.md?page=3)