# Refusing a Direct Order from Your Supervisor
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 17, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801 "2015-06-17T23:37:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 17
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/41 "2015-06-19T14:45:25Z")
> [@Sparky812](#):
>
> Nice story…except it actually proves the opposite of what you hoped it would.
>
> Just because you or your supervisor believe something is stupid, it doesn’t make it so. It’s kinda the reason why we don’t allow the inmates to run the asylum.
>
> In fact, the U.S. the National Fire Code requires both monthly and quarterly fire alarm tests. So, it’s the Law.
> It also requires regular quarterly fire drills which should conducted during all shifts of the day.
>
> While running a fire drill in a building that’s unoccupied at the time may seem odd, running a test of the alarm system when it is completely unoccupied is usually the ideal situation.
Except , of course , that the National Fire Code is not an actual law. It’s a code developed by a trade association. Various jurisdictions may adopt it in whole or in part , but it’s not a Federal law itself and therefore doesn’t apply everywhere.
**Little Nemo** , I work for a different area of the same agency you worked for ( or perhaps its successor agency, depending on when you retired). On my side, I’ve received many stupid orders and probably given a few. But the conversation on my side would have ended:
“But it shouldn’t be on the schedule.”
“Probably not. But I’m not the one who wrote the schedule and I’m not the one who signed it.”
“Why didn’t you tell your supervisor it made no sense?”
Because we would have told the supervisor . When I get directions to do things that don’t make sense, I absolutely let those above me know it doesn’t make sense and why. They frequently tell me to do it anyway , but if they ever said “But you should have known it didn’t make sense” my answer would have been “I told you it didn’t and you told me to do it anyway”. Does the prison side really discourage questioning policies to that extent?
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/42 "2015-06-19T19:34:15Z")
> [@Sparky812](#):
>
> Nice story…except it actually proves the opposite of what you hoped it would.
>
> Just because you or your supervisor believe something is stupid, it doesn’t make it so. It’s kinda the reason why we don’t allow the inmates to run the asylum.
>
> In fact, the U.S. the National Fire Code requires both monthly and quarterly fire alarm tests. So, it’s the Law.
>
> It also requires regular quarterly fire drills which should conducted during all shifts of the day.
>
> While running a fire drill in a building that’s unoccupied at the time may seem odd, running a test of the alarm system when it is completely unoccupied is usually the ideal situation.
Nice theory…except that it’s not correct.
NFPA requires monthly alarm tests but it doesn’t require them to be conducted around the clock. Once the administration became aware these tests were occurring on the night shift, they put a stop to them and rescheduled them for shifts when these buildings were open.
The quarterly drills were continued in all occupied buildings as that had never been an issue. NFPA does not require fire drills to be conducted in unoccupied buildings.
---
### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/43 "2015-06-19T19:55:22Z")
> [@doreen](#):
>
> Because we would have told the supervisor . When I get directions to do things that don’t make sense, I absolutely let those above me know it doesn’t make sense and why. They frequently tell me to do it anyway , but if they ever said “But you should have known it didn’t make sense” my answer would have been “I told you it didn’t and you told me to do it anyway”. Does the prison side really discourage questioning policies to that extent?
This particular prison had a pretty dysfunctional administration. It was an unofficial dumping ground for executives who had been around long enough that they were entitled to a promotion but whom nobody wanted to work with. They got dumped on us and left there to put in their time until they retired. It’s notable that in the eleven years I worked at that prison not a single executive team member got promoted.
And honesty makes me admit I caused some of my own problems. I’m not a very political person. I generally work well with people (I was actually widely liked) but I expect everyone to be doing their job. My problem was that I expected this of my superiors as well as my subordinates. So a prison where they dumped incompetent executives was not a good fit for me. Most of my colleagues had as low an opinion of our administration as I did but I didn’t conceal my feelings as well as others did. The result was that I had a rather antagonistic relationship with the administration.
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### Author:  [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/44 "2015-06-20T03:07:08Z")
This also made me think of another circumstance in the past
How many Japanese fliers in ww2 refused or avoided the Kamikaze suicide attempts on the Allied ships ?
I suppose that not going through with it would bring shame to their family but it is another interesting point
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/45 "2015-06-20T03:54:04Z")
> [@ssgenius](#):
>
> How many Japanese fliers in ww2 refused or avoided the Kamikaze suicide attempts on the Allied ships ?
Kamikaze were officially all “volunteers”, although in a lot of cases, you were considered to have volunteered unless you affirmatively opted out.
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### Author:  [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/46 "2015-06-20T12:26:40Z")
> [@kopek](#):
>
> OK, this gets into fine points discussed in a class lots of years ago, and from the standpoint of the Army, but ----
>
> Legal or not would depend on survivability. If your superior has plans for rescue and there is a chance for rescue, it is legal. If it is flat-out a “suicide mission and everyone will be considered dead” it’s not legal. You can volunteer for something like that, but you can’t be ordered to do it.
My navy friends were on maneuvers in the 80’s where the job of their ship was to stand between the aircraft carrier and (hypothetical) incoming nuclear-headed missiles. The crew weren’t asked to volunteer: they were informed afterwards.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/47 "2015-06-20T14:31:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> Certainly not minutes. If that had been the case, entire armies would have been disappearing.
>
> But it is true that if you were a WWII infantryman who was up on the battle line, you had a better than even chance of being killed or seriously wounded.
>
> A WWII infantry unit would have around 10,000-15,000 men. About a third of that number would be line infantry, which would be taking the majority of casualties. A typical division in a combat theater would take about fifty or sixty casualties a day on average. So as a ballpark figure, if you were a WWII infantryman you had on average about a one percent chance of being killed or seriously wounded for every day you were on the line.
>
> One percent doesn’t sound too bad until the days start adding up. If you were a soldier who went into combat in June 1944, you might stay in combat until Germany surrendered in May 1945 - that’s over three hundred days.
My Dad started at the coast of France and went to the end of the Ruhr Pocket. So, from 29 Jan 1945 til April 21st 1945 he was with the 13th Armored - he was transferred over with part of his original unit as experienced cadre to bolster the ranking NCOs. Before that he had been rumbling around parts of France with his original group. They were not in the first batch on June 6th 44, they were a few days later. So he slogged for pretty much a year, heaviest fighting at the beginning and the end with a bunch of hurry up and wait in the middle.
It was fun and scary - he could sit and be ominous when some poor guy showed up to pick me up for a date in my 13-15 years =) 30 years in the army gives one good menace 😃 And after reading his records when we cleared out his desk after he died made me glad he was never really pissed at any of my boyfriends enough to want to accost them in a dark alley! :eek: [his bronze star/V is my good luck pocket piece, I keep it pinned in one of the pockets of my daily carry messenger bag.]
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### Author:  [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/48 "2015-06-20T15:27:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> Kamikaze were officially all “volunteers”, although in a lot of cases, you were considered to have volunteered unless you affirmatively opted out.
Then they were given enough gas for a one way trip and, believe it or not, their feet were wired to the rudder pedals making exit impossible. Second thoughts were thusly prevented.
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/49 "2015-06-20T15:38:22Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#):
>
> Then they were given enough gas for a one way trip and, believe it or not, their feet were wired to the rudder pedals making exit impossible. Second thoughts were thusly prevented.
You got a cite for this feet wiring thing? I’ve read quite a bit about the subject and never seen this. I’m skeptical that anyone could even reach that far into the cockpit, with the pilot already in it, to wire his feet to anything.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/50 "2015-06-20T17:21:14Z")
I’ve never heard of feet-wiring (unless the pilot was a woman trying to enhance her sexual appeal) but I have read of locking the kamikaze into the cockpit, which seems a much more feasible and simpler approach - just secure the cockpit hatch from the outside.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/51 "2015-06-20T18:52:22Z")
The locking the pilot into the cockpit thing seems to be a myth. People have “heard it’s happened”, but nobody can point out specific times it did, and none of the records of surviving kamikaze pilots have said that they were locked in or saw their fellow pilots locked in.
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### Author:  [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/52 "2015-06-20T22:24:24Z")
> **[The Kamikaze pilot who survived as he was about to take off](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3129884/The-Kamikaze-pilot-survived-Japan-s-Emperor-surrendered-just-suicide-mission.html)**
>
> Hishashi Tezuka was on a train headed to take off on his suicide mission in Japan in September 1945 when Emperor Hirohiti announced Japan was to surrender bring the war to an end.
Some pilots did survive. Interesting story
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/53 "2015-06-20T23:00:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> Are recruits given any training on how to distinguish a lawful order from an unlawful order?
Yes, but it’s not really any help. The nature of an order is such that it is intended to be obeyed, and failure to obey isn’t really considered. They tell you that unlawful orders are not to be obeyed, but never tell you that it requires more bravery to defy one as it does to simply obey it. They leave it to your judgment, which inevitably is going to be different from that of the officer who told you to do it.
In the end, if you defy an order you’d better be right, and even then you’re going to answer for it, often with long-term consequences. Few officers like the idea of their competence being questioned, and they’ll remember that you’re the guy who did it to one of their friends.
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### Author:  [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/54 "2015-06-22T22:43:17Z")
Interesting point.
Yes, I know that superiors do not like having the orders questioned but when I was training people, I mentioned that if a superior gives a questionable order to ask for clarification.
This can be difficult to do especially for the new recruit.
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### Author:  [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/55 "2015-06-23T03:36:29Z")
> **[Stanislav Petrov: The man who may have saved the world](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24280831)**
>
> Stanislav Petrov tells the BBC how a decision he made 30 years ago may have prevented a nuclear war.
Another instance of refusing an order (sort of).
If Mr. Petrov had followed his standing orders there probably would have been a nuclear exchange
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### Author:  [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/56 "2015-06-23T06:13:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> …
> In a civilian job, one can expect that the most severe consequences would generally be termination.
What are you supposed to do when the guys in very expensive suits show up and let it be known that it would be a shame if something happens to your brother, you know, the one in Africa with the Peace Corps that has a tattoo of a cross on his big toe? And, when you get home, your wife has a package about the size of a pack of cigarettes that came that afternoon with French writing on it from Côte d’Ivoire?
Oh, wait, that’s the start of a bad movie.
Nevermind.
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### Author:  [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-a-direct-order-from-your-supervisor/722801/57 "2015-06-23T15:45:36Z")
There was a fictional movie that explored this type of issue, Crimson Tide. Denzel Washington was an XO on a submarine and Gene Hackman was the captain. The captain orders his crew to launch atomic missiles or some such thing, and the XO finds him unfit for duty and relieves him (which is I guess part of the philosophy of having an XO; I have never been in the military). Then there is all this discussion about whether this is a mutiny, etc., etc.
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