# Refusing an offensive payment for a debt
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 23, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558 "2011-10-23T18:17:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/1 "2011-10-23T18:17:22Z")
Let’s say an individual finds a debt objectionable and wants to pay it in the most offensive manor possible.
So they use a marker like some stores do to mark larger bills and write out the dozens on every dollar bill used to pay, as well as their critique of the receiver’s religion, nationality, sports team, preferred operating system, and soft drink preference.
I’m told if you refuse payment for a debt it becomes void. Is this true? Could you force someone to either discharge your debt or receive notes about how promiscuous their mother was?
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### Author:  [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/2 "2011-10-23T19:18:32Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> Let’s say an individual finds a debt objectionable and wants to pay it in the most offensive manor possible.
>
> So they use a marker like some stores do to mark larger bills and write out the dozens on every dollar bill used to pay, as well as their critique of the receiver’s religion, nationality, sports team, preferred operating system, and soft drink preference.
[Defacement of Currency](http://www.bep.treas.gov/historicallegislation.html)
Don’t get cute.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/3 "2011-10-23T20:04:25Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#):
>
> [Defacement of Currency](http://www.bep.treas.gov/historicallegislation.html)
>
> Don’t get cute.
I presume you mean this:
> [@](#):
>
> Defacement of currency is a violation of Title 18, Section 333 of the United States Code. Under this provision, currency defacement is generally defined as follows: Whoever mutilates, cuts, disfigures, perforates, unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, Federal Reserve Bank, or Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such item(s) unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
>
> Defacement of currency in such a way that it is made unfit for circulation comes under the jurisdiction of the United States Secret Service. The United States Secret Service web address is [www.secretservice.gov](http://www.secretservice.gov).
That doesn’t answer the question. Whether or not it’s “defaced”, they still have to accept it, or cancel the debt right?
Oh and I’m not looking legal advice, just curious.
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### Author:  [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/4 "2011-10-23T20:18:53Z")
There is no obligation for anyone to accept defaced currency. That is the whole point of being “unfit for circulation”.
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### Author:  [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/5 "2011-10-23T20:19:47Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The United States Secret Service web address is [www.secretservice.gov](http://www.secretservice.gov).
Shhhhhhhh!
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### Author:  [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/6 "2011-10-23T21:01:23Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> So they use a marker like some stores do to mark larger bills and **write out the dozens** on every dollar bill used to pay,
write out the what?
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/7 "2011-10-23T21:12:22Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> That doesn’t answer the question. Whether or not it’s “defaced”, they still have to accept it, or cancel the debt right?
No.
**[Legal Tender Status](http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx):**
> [@](#):
>
> …the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled “Legal tender,” which states: “United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues.”
>
> This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. **There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services.** Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.
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### Author:  [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/8 "2011-10-23T21:20:57Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#):
>
> [Defacement of Currency](http://www.bep.treas.gov/historicallegislation.html)
>
> Don’t get cute.
As long as the bill is still fit to be circulated, no come has been committed. I’ve never looked to hard to find the exact defintion, but I presume that as long as you can still tell what the bill is without straining to hard, you’re probably in the clear. IOW, writing “LINUX IS STOOPID” on a twenty with a magic marker, isn’t going to have the SS knocking at your door.
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### Author:  [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/9 "2011-10-23T22:23:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> No.
>
> **[Legal Tender Status](http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx):**
That’s talking about pre-debt, though. I can tell you I won’t sell you something for US Dollars, but if you owe me a debt, I can’t tell you that I only accept gold, f’rinstance.
The real question seems to be, at what point does a bill become ‘unfit for circulation’? All of the examples listed involve altering the physical structure, not just writing on. Given that banks regularly recirculate bills with small amounts of writing, I very much doubt that the Secret Service considers any writing to be defacement. However, I don’t know if covering both sides would count. I doubt there’s much precedent, so you might have to sue to find out.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/10 "2011-10-23T22:30:56Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#):
>
> That’s talking about pre-debt, though. I can tell you I won’t sell you something for US Dollars, but if you owe me a debt, I can’t tell you that I only accept gold, f’rinstance.
True. But I can refuse to accept pennies, nickels, dimes or dollar bills.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/11 "2011-10-23T23:05:02Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#):
>
> … no come has been committed.
I’m assuming then that no penis has ensued either.
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### Author:  [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/12 "2011-10-23T23:46:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> True. But I can refuse to accept pennies, nickels, dimes or dollar bills.
Why? I thought the question was specifically about accepting payment for a debt.
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### Author:  [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/13 "2011-10-24T00:02:39Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#):
>
> write out the what?
Presumably [the insult game](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dozens).
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/14 "2011-10-24T00:11:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> No.
> There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services.
There was a thread about this a while back. But the issue is (and I don’t think it was resolved then), this mentions payment goods and services, and very specifically NOT debts.
Ignoring the defaced currency issue (which I agree with posters above you don’t have to accept), if you want to pay off your mortgage with a truck load quarters I’m not sure they could refuse to accept it.
Remember interest is due on debts, if the guy you owe has the right to refuse legitimate currency as payment, he can keep quibbling (“$50s ? I don’t take those!”. “You expect me to count all those singles!?”), and keep charging you interest.
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### Author:  [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/15 "2011-10-24T00:28:08Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#):
>
> As long as the bill is still fit to be circulated, no come has been committed. I’ve never looked to hard to find the exact defintion, but I presume that as long as you can still tell what the bill is without straining to hard, you’re probably in the clear.
Each Federal Reserve Bank has machines that are used to sort, count, and bundle currency. Those machines also catch bills that are worn, torn, tattered, faded, and otherwise unfit for circulation – including bills that have excessive markings on them. I don’t know that there is an exact definition of this (and even so I doubt that the Fed would actually release this info); it probably depends on the setting on each machine.
But bills don’t go through these Federal Reserve machines all that often any more – banks tend to keep the currency in-house (there are costs involved in dealing through the Fed). And most banks have their own bill counting machines nowadays, so they just count bills and re-issue bundles of them through their tellers. When I worked at a large bank chain, they frequently transferred bundles of bills between branches as needed, but tried to avoid going to or from the Fed.
So as long a a marked-up bill is still able to go thru the local branch bank’s counting machine (which will be much less exacting than the Federal Reserve machines), it can float around in circulation for quite a while. But eventually it will probably get to the Fed machines, and ‘excessively marked-up’ ones will be caught there.
Of course, any teller, cashier, or other person dealing with the money could shortcut this. Seeing a bill marked up with offensive or racist markings, any cashier could just say “we can’t take that bill”, or if the person had nothing else to pay with, they would accept it but the business would be sure to not give that bill out to any customer as change. And a bank teller would accept it, but put it with the collection of ‘damaged’ bills that will be sent to the Fed for replacement.
A while back (early 1990’s) some gay activists were encouraging people to rubber stamp “Gay Money” & a triangle in red on their money, supposedly to remind businesses of their gay customers. This small marking certainly didn’t make the bill unrecognizable nor render it unable to be circulated, but it bothered some conservative businesses, who refused to accept the bills. That brought more publicity to the campaign, which is probably not what those businesses wanted. (They would have been smarter to have quietly accepted the bills, then had their bank send them to the Fed for replacements – that would have go the bills out of circulation faster.)
Recently, there have been reports of “No God but Allah” rubber stamped on bills just below the printed “In God We Trust” on the bills. Some people are very upset about this, and refuse to handle those bills. (Maybe some of the same conservative businesses?) This kind of semi-defacement of currency seems to have been around for a while.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/16 "2011-10-24T02:47:42Z")
Decades ago, my mom and a bunch of her hippie friends paid all their taxes in singles, and wrote on each and every bill what they wanted that dollar spent on. I don’t think anyone made a fuss about it. Then again, though, I’m not sure any human ever saw any of those bills, either.
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### Author:  [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/17 "2011-10-24T03:04:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> **[Legal Tender Status](http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx):**
So the store doesn’t have to take paper money, or $2 bills, or pennies. But can they accept $2 bills in general, but refuse the $2 bill I’ve written “thanks for the blowjob – \<3 Hershele” on provided you can tell it’s a $2 bill?
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/18 "2011-10-24T03:40:45Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#):
>
> So the store doesn’t have to take paper money, or $2 bills, or pennies. But can they accept $2 bills in general, but refuse the $2 bill I’ve written “thanks for the blowjob – \<3 Hershele” on provided you can tell it’s a $2 bill?
Eh? I read that as saying the opposite:
> [@](#):
>
> The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled “Legal tender,” which states: “United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues.”
>
> This statute means that **all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.** There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for\*\* payment for goods and/or services.\*\*
If you are accepting a payment for a debt you HAVE to take any legal tender, but when you are accepting payment for goods or services you don’t.
As for defaced money that is no longer legal tender (as shown by links above) so you don’t have to accept it.
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### Author:  [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/19 "2011-10-24T03:41:06Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> I’m told if you refuse payment for a debt it becomes void. Is this true? Could you force someone to either discharge your debt or receive notes about how promiscuous their mother was?
Refusing payment doesn’t automatically repudiate the debt. For example, I could refuse payment in cash because you owe me $100,000 and I’d rather have it wired to my account.
Think of it this way: In the end, the lender is going to take the debtor to court. The court will hear how infantile the debtor behaved, and how the debtor now claims he isn’t in debt because the lender refused to take the insulting notes. (Although the lender was more than willing to take payment with other non-defaced notes).
The court will not only declare that the debt still is owed, but will then take the debtor out in the back and slap them silly.
This smacks of _magical law_. Magical law is such beliefs that if you get a legal document with your names in all caps, that it’s not to you. Or that, if you don’t use a zip code, you aren’t under the laws of the United States.
In the end, you borrowed money, you owe it, and the lender is willing to take a **reasonable** payment. You’re not going to get out of it because the lender forgot say some sort of magical “Mother, may I?”
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refusing-an-offensive-payment-for-a-debt/600558/20 "2011-10-24T03:48:22Z")
> [@qazwart](#):
>
> The court will not only declare that the debt still is owed, but will then take the debtor out in the back and slap them silly.
The law above says different to me. IMO (IANAL) the court would say you have to accept the valid legal currency that was tendered.
That’s not to say the debt would be made void by you refusing payment (as you never paid the debt), but I could imagine it might void any interest payments you charge after point I attempted to pay the debt.
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