# Refuting Scripture **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2001, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356 "2001-03-01T07:51:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/101 "2001-03-13T01:54:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*Of course, if we are mere property of your god, I can see why he might not want to extend any effort to helping us understand his reasons for doing things. We might get uppity and try to make some decisions for ourselves. \*\* We might even rebel. If God owns the Earth, we are either tenants, slaves or trespassers. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/102 "2001-03-13T03:11:30Z")
cmkeller wrote: > [@](#): > > That degree of protection extends (no Monty Python jokes, please) human sperm. It is an ingredient in the creation of a human life-sustaining vessel…and the only one which can willfully be wasted. To do so is sinful. I know you said “no Monty Python jokes, please”, but this is just **screaming** out to me for a rousing chorus of: \*Ev-e-ry sperm is sacred, Ev-e-ry sperm is good, Ev-e-ry sperm is needed In your neighborhood, Ev-e-ry sperm is holy, Ev-e-ry sperm is great, If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate!\* ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/103 "2001-03-13T03:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*zev, the first answer a parent gives to a child should _never_ be “Because I said so!”. First, you try your best to give a correct answer, in a way that the child can understand. \*\* Only if they are capable of understanding the reasons. If my 9 month old grabs a knife, I take it away from him. I don’t say “Son, you know you might get hurt if you play with this knife…” I simply say “No!” (which is the same as “Because I said so!” If they are older and can understand, then I explain. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If your god is all-knowing, this shouldn’t be a problem for him. \*\* Maybe it wouldn’t be a problem for Him to explain, but it may be a problem for us to understand. God chose (for whatever reason) to endow us with a limited intellect. We are told things to the level that we are capable of understanding. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Of course, if we are mere property of your god, I can see why he might not want to extend any effort to helping us understand his reasons for doing things. We might get uppity and try to make some decisions for ourselves. \*\* … and you are entitled to your opinion. 🙂 Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/104 "2001-03-13T19:33:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > **God chose (for whatever reason) to endow us with a limited intellect.** I think even God had no choice in this matter. An unlimited intellect would require a brain of unlimited size. Only so many neurons can be fit inside the average (and even the above-average) human skull, and there can be only so many connections between those neurons. Then, of course, there’s that verse in Genesis where God is actually worried that since A & E ate the forbidden fruit, they now know the difference between Good and Evil and are now like gods. He was also worried that they’d eat of the tree of life and live forever. Looks like YHWH was afraid of competition. Or He was behaving like a parent who doesn’t want to see his children grow up and leave the nest. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/105 "2001-03-13T22:23:05Z")
Genesis 10:5, 20 and 31 all state that each of the various tribes and/or nations begun by the descendents of Noah had its own tongue or language. So why does Genesis 11:1 say that everyone spoke one language? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/106 "2001-03-13T22:54:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\*Genesis 10:5, 20 and 31 all state that each of the various tribes and/or nations begun by the descendents of Noah had its own tongue or language. > > So why does Genesis 11:1 say that everyone spoke one language? \*\* Not all sections of the Torah are written in chronilogical order. In fact, the Talmud very often states _ain mukdam u’m’uchar baTorah_ (The Torah is not written in chronological order). Very often the Bible will finish up the topic it is talking about and then move on to another topic. Want examples? Genesis 11:32 says that Terach died. The next verse says that Abram left his homeland. However, Terach did not die for many years until after Abram left. (In fact, the NT authors tripped up on that one). Rather the Torah was finishing up it’s discussion of the generations from Noah to Abram before moving on to Abram’s children (which became the focus of the rest of the Bible). Genesis 25:12-18 discusses Ishamel’s death and geneaology. Genesis 25:19 and onward talks about Jacob and Esau’s birth. That does not mean that Ishmael’s death and all those descendants mentioned were born before Jacob and Esau. The Torah simply finished it’s discussion of Ishmael and went on to Isaac’s children. The end of Genesis 36 talks about kings that ruled Edom. Genesis 37 talks about the sale of Joseph. This doesn’t mean that all those kings ruled and died before Joseph was sold. The Torah simply finished it’s discussion of Esau’s descendants and then focused on Jacob’s. Similarly, Genesis 10 talks about the rise of ancient kingdoms and Noah’s descendants. It is simply finishing up it’s chapter on Noah. The Babel story in chapter 11 is simply an explanation of how these languages and nations came to be. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/107 "2001-03-14T01:32:49Z")
Gee, it’s almost as if the whole Bible were nothing more than stories and parables, and not The Truth™! :rolleyes: Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/108 "2001-03-14T02:44:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*Gee, it’s almost as if the whole Bible were nothing more than stories and parables, and not The Truth™! > > :rolleyes: > > Esprix \*\* Why do you assume the two are mutually exclusive? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/109 "2001-03-14T02:53:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Captain Amazing** _ > > Why do you assume the two are mutually exclusive? That’s another thread entirely. 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/110 "2001-03-14T03:58:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > **Not all sections of the Torah are written in chronilogical order. In fact, the Talmud very often states _ain mukdam u’m’uchar baTorah_ (The Torah is not written in chronological order).** Agreed. But we can deduce the correct chronological order this way: Ham was a son of Noah. (Genesis 10:1) Cush was a son of Ham. (Genesis 10:6) Nimrod was a son of Cush. (Genesis 10:8) Nimrod founded Babel in the land of Shinar (Genesis 10:10) and was its king. (Genesis 11:1-9 describes this in more detail; it says that the city and the tower were built concurrently.) But look at what this implies: _Nimrod is responsible for the Tower of Babel_. And he was a great-grandson of Noah. At the same time, many of the other great-grandsons of Noah were off running their own nation/tribes _each with its own tongue._ IOW, they already had their own tongues before the Tower was even built. Besides, the history of languages contradicts the Tower story. There’s another [thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=40523) a much older one, about this in GQ. **cmkeller** says he believed the Tower was built at around 1800 BCE. I pointed out that Egyptian heiroglyphics date back to around 2925 BCE, just a _tad_ earlier ;). Sumerian dates back to 3100 BCE. Semitic-Akkadian dates back to 2000 BCE and guess how the Semites and Akkadians got their names: from Shem, one of the sons of Noah, and Accad, a city allegedly founded by Nimrod. BTW: were you aware that EVERY culture claims its language was given to them by their respective god(s) (except for atheist culture, naturally)? Why should yours be any different? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/111 "2001-03-14T05:03:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > **Not all sections of the Torah are written in chronilogical order. In fact, the Talmud very often states _ain mukdam u’m’uchar baTorah_ (The Torah is not written in chronological order).** > > Agreed. But we can deduce the correct chronological order this way: > > Ham was a son of Noah. (Genesis 10:1) Cush was a son of Ham. (Genesis 10:6) Nimrod was a son of Cush. (Genesis 10:8) Nimrod founded Babel in the land of Shinar (Genesis 10:10) and was its king. (Genesis 11:1-9 describes this in more detail; it says that the city and the tower were built concurrently.) > > But look at what this implies: _Nimrod is responsible for the Tower of Babel_. And he was a great-grandson of Noah. At the same time, many of the other great-grandsons of Noah were off running their own nation/tribes _each with its own tongue._ > > IOW, they already had their own tongues before the Tower was even built. \*\* Not necessarily. Most of Noah’s great-grandchildren were probably still alive at the time (check out Genesis 10, I believe – lifespans still in the hundreds of years). Nimrod builds the tower. Man proposed, God disposes. Each “clan-chief” so to speak, picks up his family and (now speaking their own language) moves off. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > Besides, the history of languages contradicts the Tower story. There’s another [thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=40523) a much older one, about this in GQ. **cmkeller** says he believed the Tower was built at around 1800 BCE. I pointed out that Egyptian heiroglyphics date back to around 2925 BCE, just a _tad_ earlier ;). Sumerian dates back to 3100 BCE. Semitic-Akkadian dates back to 2000 BCE and guess how the Semites and Akkadians got their names: from Shem, one of the sons of Noah, and Accad, a city allegedly founded by Nimrod. \*\* I’ll be honest and admit I can’t speak to this issue. I’m not altogether familiar with the ancient cultures in the area. > [@](#): > > \*\* > BTW: were you aware that EVERY culture claims its language was given to them by their respective god(s) (except for atheist culture, naturally)? Why should yours be any different? \*\* I didn’t say it should. Almost every ancient culture has a flood story too. The point is this: I’m not trying to prove to you that the Torah is the literal God-given truth. I don’t know that it is provable. You, however, have given me two examples where you stated that it wasn’t internally consistent and each time I have answered you. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/112 "2001-03-15T18:50:00Z")
I get the impression that I did from your last sentence. It was not my intention. I’m used to debating the fundamentalist Christians who think their religion is the only true one, that all other religions are false and lies from Satan. The old habits kicked in and I posed a question that I often do, “Why should your religion be any different?” Anyway, the topic of this thread is “Refuting Scripture” and bringing up the history of language development is the best way to refute the Babel story. Concerning “language from gods” stories, I think it’s because no one can remember a time when there was no language, so people believed it was something given to their most ancient ancestors by their god or gods. As for flood myths, the most common natural disaster is flooding, so it stands to reason that cultures would have myths trying to explain them and to get some sense or order and justice from a seemingly random event. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356/113 "2001-03-15T19:14:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\*I get the impression that I did from your last sentence. It was not my intention. \*\* No offense taken. I may have been a bit more blunt than I usually am, but no harm done. 🙂 > [@](#): > > \*\* > I’m used to debating the fundamentalist Christians who think their religion is the only true one, that all other religions are false and lies from Satan. The old habits kicked in and I posed a question that I often do, “Why should your religion be any different?” \*\* (now to fall out of your good graces) I **do** believe that Christianity is wrong. Otherwise, I’d be a Christian. Same applies to Islam, Hinduism, etc. However, I’m not out to convince everyone of this. It’s simply my belief. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Anyway, the topic of this thread is “Refuting Scripture” and bringing up the history of language development is the best way to refute the Babel story. Concerning “language from gods” stories, I think it’s because no one can remember a time when there was no language, so people believed it was something given to their most ancient ancestors by their god or gods. \*\* Maybe. That’s as good an explaination as any I’ve heard yet. > [@](#): > > \*\* > As for flood myths, the most common natural disaster is flooding, so it stands to reason that cultures would have myths trying to explain them and to get some sense or order and justice from a seemingly random event. \*\* Or, it could all simply be variations on an actual event… Zev Steinhardt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/refuting-scripture/56356.md?page=5)