# Regarding the religious far-right **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513 "2017-09-04T21:16:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Grumbacher\_Red](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Grumbacher\_Red](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumbacher_Red)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/41 "2017-09-08T22:25:34Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > We are definitely trying to take away the freedom to commit abortion. Yeah, like kaylasdad99, I see what you are doing there. Commit indeed. You didn’t do it, and you won’t have to answer for it in Heaven. I promise. > [@puddleglum](#): > > As far as I know we are not trying to take away the freedom for gays to marry, just not in favor of the government recognizing it because it is not an actual marriage. Why do you care? Let the gays and lesbians get married and be miserable like the rest of us. They have that right. > [@puddleglum](#): > > We are not opposed to freedom of expression just using our tax money to pay for art that insults what we find sacred. Again, you won’t be held accountable for that on Judgement Day. The best way to counteract ugliness is to create beauty. > [@puddleglum](#): > > A more overtly religious government would not take freedoms away but would allow more freedom to practice religion. Oh really? I guess that is why theocracies have populations that are always so religiously diverse. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/42 "2017-09-08T23:01:29Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > A more overtly religious government would not take freedoms away but would allow more freedom to practice religion. The most foolish part of a really foolish post. An overtly religious government would not allow more freedom to practice religion. An overtly religious government would require everyone to practice the one religion the government approves of. The freedom to practice any other religion would disappear. The freedom to not practice a religion would disappear. If you don’t believe me, move to Saudi Arabia. They’ve got an overtly religious government. Then let me know how much freedom to practice religion you have. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/43 "2017-09-09T00:02:35Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > BTW Mods, I realize I am probably relegating myself to GD here. That’s fine. I do believe you are (and that’s not a bad thing). Sorry I just noticed this thread. It certainly does appear to be a GD type discussion. I’m going to move it and hope more who will want to discuss it see the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/44 "2017-09-09T00:19:01Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > We are definitely trying to take away the freedom to commit abortion. I want to take away your freedom to pull such transparent rhetorical tricks. Leave it to others: You’re not good enough at it, and make a hash out of what could have been something subtle. > [@](#): > > As far as I know we are not trying to take away the freedom for gays to marry, just not in favor of the government recognizing it because it is not an actual marriage. You know what isn’t an actual marriage? A marriage the government doesn’t recognize. As far as the tax laws and most of society is concerned, a marriage is legal or it’s nothing, so don’t pretend that destroying marriage equality wouldn’t have any effect. Unless you would be OK with us destroying Christian marriages in the eyes of the law. > [@](#): > > We are not opposed to freedom of expression just using our tax money to pay for art that insults what we find sacred. Sorry, we don’t use public funds to turn art museums into safe space. If you want one, you can set one up yourself. > [@](#): > > A more overtly religious government would not take freedoms away but would allow more freedom to practice religion. You have freedom to practice religion. You don’t have the freedom to impose it on others. Equality doesn’t mean “I’m more equal than you” unless you have aspirations to being an Ayatollah, which reminds me: That ax you’re holding cuts both ways, Eugene. If religion is influencing government, well, government has a sovereign right to turn religion into whatever it needs it to be in order to maintain power. I think that might be contrary to some tenets of honest faith, but maybe you want your religion to turn into a branch of the Federal government. That isn’t what this country is, and it never has been. As per Jefferson, who was there, “the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion”. ([Treaty of Tripoli](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp)) Anyone who says anything else is lying outright. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/45 "2017-09-09T15:34:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The most foolish part of a really foolish post. > > An overtly religious government would not allow more freedom to practice religion. An overtly religious government would require everyone to practice the one religion the government approves of. The freedom to practice any other religion would disappear. The freedom to not practice a religion would disappear. > > If you don’t believe me, move to Saudi Arabia. They’ve got an overtly religious government. Then let me know how much freedom to practice religion you have. Saudi Arabia isn’t typical of governments which list Islam as the state religion, it’s not even typical of conservative Islamic governments. It’s a unique country which is really typical of nothing other than itself. Malaysia might be a more typical case of an Islamic conservative party in power, and while I wouldn’t want to live there, it certainly isn’t Saudi Arabia, it’s a high functioning country, and it’s certainly legal to practice other religions, or none. (I don’t think it’s legal for Muslims to convert to other religions though). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/46 "2017-09-09T15:54:19Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > You know what isn’t an actual marriage? A marriage the government doesn’t recognize. As far as the tax laws and most of society is concerned, a marriage is legal or it’s nothing It is astounding how people don’t stop to consider this simple aspect. A change in civil marriage rules does nothing to diminish someone’s sacramental marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/47 "2017-09-09T16:05:07Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Saudi Arabia isn’t typical of governments which list Islam as the state religion, it’s not even typical of conservative Islamic governments. It’s a unique country which is really typical of nothing other than itself. > > Malaysia might be a more typical case of an Islamic conservative party in power, and while I wouldn’t want to live there, it certainly isn’t Saudi Arabia, it’s a high functioning country, and it’s certainly legal to practice other religions, or none. (I don’t think it’s legal for Muslims to convert to other religions though). But which country has more religious freedom? One which allows people to convert religions whenever they want or one which has some restrictions on religious conversions? Which supports my main point; overtly religious governments, by definition, restrict religious freedom. By showing favoritism to one religion, they are restricting every other religion, along with non-religion. And this is one case where there is an equivalency between atheism and religion. An overtly atheist government also restricts religious freedom by showing favoritism to non-religion. The only governments that offer real religious freedom are those that maintain strict neutrality on religion. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/48 "2017-09-09T17:00:40Z")
As I have pointed out to fanatical Christians on many occasions, the Taliban believes in a lot of the same things they do: no abortions, no gay marriage, government supposed religion. So go live there. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/49 "2017-09-09T17:58:26Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > (I don’t think it’s legal for Muslims to convert to other religions though). On second glance it looks like it’s actually a matter of long-standing legal debate whether Malaysian Muslims have the right to leave Islam, and there’s no very clear answer. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/50 "2017-09-09T19:44:40Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > P.S.: Did these people all boycott M_A_S_H_ as one, on the grounds that Klinger was an abomination? --Because I don’t recall hearing anything like that at the time. Of course they didn’t. The show made it quite clear the character was not actually gay, and was only donnong dresses in an attempt to be discharged early. IIRC, when given the chance for receiving a discharge provided he admitted to being a “deviate”, Klinger refused to take the gag that far. I think that’s when he stopped wearing women’s clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/51 "2017-09-09T19:48:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Which supports my main point; overtly religious governments, by definition, restrict religious freedom. By showing favoritism to one religion, they are restricting every other religion, along with non-religion. What about the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/52 "2017-09-09T20:37:02Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What about the UK? A prime example of the thing swinging in the other direction: The religion is a branch of the government, purely ceremonial and of no more force than the government wants it to have. Sure took them long enough to get there, though, the silly buggers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/53 "2017-09-09T20:41:30Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > On second glance it looks like it’s actually a matter of long-standing legal debate whether Malaysian Muslims have the right to leave Islam, and there’s no very clear answer. I’d say the only possible answer is “yes”, and after that it just a question of how oppresive the Malaysian government is willing to be. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/54 "2017-09-09T20:56:20Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > A prime example of the thing swinging in the other direction: The religion is a branch of the government, purely ceremonial and of no more force than the government wants it to have. > > Sure took them long enough to get there, though, the silly buggers. Last I heard, the Church of Englad had representation in Parliament. That’s quite a way from “purely ceremonial”. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/55 "2017-09-10T00:11:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Last I heard, the Church of Englad had representation in Parliament. That’s quite a way from “purely ceremonial”. When’s the last time it overrode the will of the people on moral grounds? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/56 "2017-09-10T02:37:43Z")
well with morons like this representing the religious far right who needs friends [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=835920](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=835920) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/57 "2017-09-10T02:49:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What about the UK? In my opinion, the United Kingdom is less free than the United States on religious issues. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/58 "2017-09-10T11:52:48Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > When’s the last time it overrode the will of the people on moral grounds? That’s irrelevant. My point is that certain leaders of a particular religion, by virtue (sorry) of tbeir position in that religion are granted voting position in one house of parliament. That is not “purely ceremonial”. The earlier question was to indicate that a poster’s assertion was incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/59 "2017-09-10T15:11:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’d say the only possible answer is “yes”, and after that it just a question of how oppresive the Malaysian government is willing to be. I was clearly speaking as a legal matter not “what would my personal preference be”. General point is that although Malaysia is run by a conservative Islamic (though not Islamist) party, and although you couldn’t pay me enough to live there, it’s not objectively a bad country to live in or a backwater, and many people (including the 30%+ of non-Muslims) seem to like it fine enough. Religious minorities actually enjoy more personal freedoms there than Muslims do, is my general understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513/60 "2017-09-10T15:12:24Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > When’s the last time it overrode the will of the people on moral grounds? The most recent test case is gay rights and that’s a battle the church of England seems to be losing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-religious-far-right/795513.md?page=4)