# Reggie Bush is a bust. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 9, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650 "2006-11-09T02:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/41 "2006-11-09T21:54:29Z")
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood] He was probably the best offensive college football player I’ve ever seen, and it’s going to take more than 80 shitty carries for me to shake some of those images out of my head. [/QUOTE] Good point about sample size – Bush’s detractors are quite certain that 80 carries are enough to determine a guy’s career. Are they correct? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/42 "2006-11-09T22:08:38Z")
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood] I know it’s hard to explain how, if he’s that good, he’s been so awful, but I just can’t see how he’s _not_ that good. [/QUOTE] Another point about sample size – Bush’s ypc stats are skewed by an especially bad game against Tampa last week. I know he hasn’t been stellar the rest of the year, but he’s been a lot better in some other games. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/43 "2006-11-09T22:37:39Z")
Bush had a very good opening game and the way he was used made it important for defenses to focus on him. I do agree he has been disappointing, but I thin kyou can only judge someone a bust in the context of their full career. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/44 "2006-11-09T23:47:02Z")
I’ve seen every Saints snap this season, and I have no doubt that the Saints’ O-line is very poor at runblocking. In the TB game, he was frequently getting hit immediately after getting the ball. They’ve been OK pass blocking, but the great sack stats are a bit misleading as Drew Brees has been absolutely amazing in terms of pocket presence, not to mention getting the ball out very quickly. His biggest problem is the aforementioned poor decision making. It’s frustrating watching him as fans see him constantly trying to take it to the outside. Deuce’s good YPC is a result of finding the few holes given to him, really looking like a veteran. Thing is, watching Deuce once he gets past the d-line isn’t really impressive, he looks really lackadasial and fairly slow, almost like he should have the ball in one hand and a scotch in the other while he listens to some Thelonious Monk on his iPod. We really haven’t seen what Bush can do in the open field in the NFL yet as he has had so few occasions to get there. My only memory of him running up the gut and getting the slightest bit of running room was a carry against the Browns, where he ran into the MLB about 6 yards past the line, spun out of a tackle and stumbled forward another 6 before being taken down by a safety. I think his YPC will go up significantly once he finally smartens up. One more thing, Bush was stronger than Lendale White at the combine, and no one is questioning Lendale’s ability to be a fulltime back. Bush is still very young and should put another 10 pounds of muscle naturally over the next year and a half without losing any speed. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/45 "2006-11-10T01:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=SCSimmons] 319 total yards (rushing and receiving, not even thinking about the return yardage, which helps field position but doesn’t get you first downs) in eight games has got to have the team management shedding tears of joy. [/QUOTE] Under 40 yards per game, from the most highly touted rookie that I can remember, has them shedding tears of joy? They might not be dissapointed, but that’s an absurd overstatement. And as has been said, running backs basically have no adjustment time from college to the NFL. Especially when the pressure isn’t all on them - they’ve got Deuce, who’s pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/46 "2006-11-10T01:35:02Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] I would note that Tomlinson – another #2 overall pick with a lot of hype – had a 3.6 YPC average his rookie year, over a full yard better than Bush. [/QUOTE] Tomlinson was drafted #5 overall. I know this, because Butch Davis selected Gerard “$30 million buys a lot of donuts” Warren 3rd overall, over Tomlinson and Richard Seymour. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/47 "2006-11-10T15:44:58Z")
[QUOTE=furt] As exhaustive as I knew you would be, ED. The only thing I’d add is that Tiki was a third-round pick; those are guys who allowed time to grow into a role. #1s are paid to be stars right away. [/QUOTE] Excellent point, though Tiki was a high second rounder. (2-6 #36) Still, nowhere near #2 overall. Which reminds me that I always thought spending a top ten pick on a RB was a waste. That’s probably because I’ve been watching Tiki Barber and Curtis Martin be studs for years now, and neither was drafted in the first round. (Curtis was a mid third rounder.) And look at the apparent next generation in New York. Brandon Jacobs and Leon Washington both look promising, and both were fourth round selections. Mel Kiper always says that RB is best left to the later rounds, and I think he’s right. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/48 "2006-11-14T00:03:51Z")
10 carries for 49 yards versus the Steelers. A few more games like that, and his average could settle in around a even 4.0 or so. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/49 "2006-11-14T02:11:13Z")
Yes, with some massive improvements, he could almost be as good as the RBs taken 20-150 picks later than him. I think all the first round RBs (addai, williams, maroney) are going to have better careers than him - without crippling their teams with a ridiculous salary. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/50 "2006-11-14T02:15:35Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] Yes, with some massive improvements, he could almost be as good as the RBs taken 20-150 picks later than him. I think all the first round RBs (addai, williams, maroney) are going to have better careers than him - without crippling their teams with a ridiculous salary. [/QUOTE] Did Reggie Bush steal your girlfriend, or what? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/51 "2006-11-14T02:26:53Z")
He tried, but he couldn’t get past me because there was only a 2 foot hole between me and the wall and not the 8+ foot holes he’s used to. I don’t have anything against him - I wasn’t rooting for him to fail or anything. But 40 yards a game out of a #2 RB with the greatest hype I’ve ever observed is pretty damn dissapointing. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/52 "2006-11-14T02:56:29Z")
Other than the fumble, he had a decent game against Pittsburgh. Ran more North-South, didn’t dance as much as he did against Tampa. I will admit it appeared that the Saints were determined to have him score a rushing TD yesterday. Gave it to him at least twice near the goal line when Deuce would have been the expected ball carrier, and ran a double reverse when he finally scored. He’s making progress, and is an important part of the team, even without big numbers. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/53 "2006-11-14T03:05:24Z")
They ran a reverse. Most TV announcers get this wrong. They call an end around a reverse, and so they call an actual reverse a double reverse. The ball only changed directions once - it’s a reverse. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/54 "2006-11-14T14:25:43Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] I think all the first round RBs (addai, williams, maroney) are going to have better careers than him - without crippling their teams with a ridiculous salary. [/QUOTE] Bush determined neither his own draft position nor the allotted salary associated with that position. It’s out of the bounds of reasonable discussion to hold that against him. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/55 "2006-11-14T15:41:38Z")
I watched 2 games of his recently. He is quick and shifty. He will do fine. Save the hall of fame for a few years though. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_the_turtle/32/2926_2.png) [@Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_the_Turtle)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/56 "2006-11-14T16:36:22Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] They ran a reverse. Most TV announcers get this wrong. They call an end around a reverse, and so they call an actual reverse a double reverse. The ball only changed directions once - it’s a reverse. [/QUOTE] I don’t believe that is the definition of ‘reverse’ (I also don’t believe it has an official definition 😃 ). If all the blocking goes right, and you fake a handoff to the back going right, and do an end around going left - that is a reverse. If the end then hands off again to someone going right, that is a ‘double’ reverse. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/57 "2006-11-14T17:16:54Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] But then again, a “poor man’s Tiki Barber” is a far cry from the concensus #1 overall Gale Sayers-type back he was billed as. His hype would lead one to expect Ladainian Tomlinson superhuman type production. I would note that Tomlinson – another #2 overall pick with a lot of hype – had a 3.6 YPC average his rookie year, over a full yard better than Bush. [/QUOTE] Yes, a yard better but hardly earth shattering, too. The point would be not that LT had a better rookie season, but that the first year cannot be truly indicative of how a player will develop. Walter Payton averaged 3.5 ypc his rookie year. Jerome Bettis had a pretty good rookie year but hen had a 3.2 ypc average his second year. Bush may end up a bust, but calling him a bust now is ludicrous. Disappointemnt, yes, bust, not yet. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/58 "2006-11-14T20:12:12Z")
[QUOTE=Fear the Turtle] I don’t believe that is the definition of ‘reverse’ (I also don’t believe it has an official definition 😃 ). If all the blocking goes right, and you fake a handoff to the back going right, and do an end around going left - that is a reverse. If the end then hands off again to someone going right, that is a ‘double’ reverse. [/QUOTE] You can’t define a reverse by running against the direction of the blocking, or it would include any counter plays. A reverse has to have the ball travelling in one direction, and then reverse that direction. An end around simply has a guy taking a handoff and going one direction. [This](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=tmq/021210) site pretty conclusively agrees with me. Not that I expect ESPN to know anything about sports, but they get it right sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_the_turtle/32/2926_2.png) [@Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_the_Turtle)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/59 "2006-11-14T22:10:46Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] You can’t define a reverse by running against the direction of the blocking, or it would include any counter plays. A reverse has to have the ball travelling in one direction, and then reverse that direction. An end around simply has a guy taking a handoff and going one direction. [This](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=tmq/021210) site pretty conclusively agrees with me. Not that I expect ESPN to know anything about sports, but they get it right sometimes. [/QUOTE] Had to go back to '02 for that one, huh 😉 How about something a little more recent (and official (well, from [NFL.com](http://NFL.com) anyway)) [See AFC Play 1 and NFC Play 1](http://www.nfl.com/probowl/features) I agree you can’t call any counter play a reverse, that was why a specified a fake handoff and end around. I still think it comes down to personal preference and there is no “Official” definition. How about if we agree that at least the QB has to go a step or two right first 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650/60 "2006-11-14T22:35:25Z")
What does the year have to do with anything? It’s the same play now as it was 30 years ago. It was just the first search result for “end around reverse double reverse”. 😛 Do you expect them to write a new article every year about it? Maybe they should. Anyway, I think it’s the only logical argument. In order for there to be a double reverse, there needs to be… a double… reverse. One change of direction is not it. From your page: “The quarterback hands the ball to the weakside receiver on a reverse.” - Uh, no. Unless the quarterback is in motion on a bootleg, which is not depicted in the picture, the ball didn’t reverse direction - it was just a handoff to someone running sideways. I think this is a case where misuse became so common that people started thinking it was the proper use (like, say, “irregardless”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-bush-is-a-bust/379650.md?page=4)