# Reggie White is Not a Great Man - Shame on the Packers and the NFL **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271 "2005-09-18T22:54:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/81 "2005-09-20T03:49:08Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > @Miller You’ve made too many quotes for me to answer your thread using quotes of my own (I’m lazy and not all that great at formatting posts.) But basically I’ll say that nothing I said is what I would consider an insult. Calling a person with multiple sclerosis “ill” or “sick” may not be 100% accurate at all times, but it is also not inaccurate and it’s not insulting, it’s calling a fish a fish. It’s not about what you consider an insult, it’s about what the people you’re talking about consider an insult. If I said you were delusional for being a Christian, would you be insulted? If I said I didn’t mean it as an insult, would that make you stop feeling insulted? Your comparison to someone suffering from MS is inaccurate, because someone suffering from MS is _suffering_ from it. It’s a painful, debilitating disease, and there’s not a person with it who doesn’t wish to be free from it. Homosexuality is none of those things. The only people who wish they didn’t have it are those who have been poisoned by more virulent strains of your own philosophy. Comparing MS victims to homosexuals is demeaning to both groups. > [@](#): > > If I’m wrong about it being a disease that makes me incorrect, but I still wouldn’t consider it an insult simply because I made an incorrect statement. The comparison itself is insulting, regardless of the intent behind it. If you honestly thought there was evidence that homosexuality was an illness, that makes the insult easier to forgive, but it doesn’t stop it from being insulting. But even then, in this day and age, you really ought to know better, or at least take the time to do some basic research before making uneducated pronouncements about the mental health of millions and millions of people. Homosexuality has not been recognized as a mental disorder by the APA since [1973](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Modern_Developments). This is recent news, it’s been recognized to be a normal part of human sexuality for over thirty years. There is really no excuse for that sort of ignorance. > [@](#): > > Anyways, if you consider the words insulting I’m sorry. I don’t intend to mean them as insults. A brick isn’t intended to be a weapon, but it still hurts to be hit by one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/82 "2005-09-20T03:59:32Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Wasn’t an objection (what am I objecting anyways, exactly?). I was just pointing out that even if I was Greek I wouldn’t have any greater understanding of ancient biblical texts, no more than an Italian would have a greater understanding of original Latin texts from the Roman era. It was just a minor nitpick, I felt that saying “because you don’t speak Greek” wasn’t perfectly accurate. And I also alluded to the fact that it was read and studied and understood (and that should also go without saying quite honestly.) I really don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. If you learn to read the original Greek, then obviously you’ll have a better understanding of the text. Why wouldn’t you? > [@](#): > > I wasn’t saying that. So no, I don’t have it backwards. You’re misinterpreting precisely what I meant by using the word “shift.” That’s exactly what you said. You said that those who cite the original Greek are “shifting the text.” That’s ridiculous. It’s the translation- any translation- that shifts the text and sometimes the translations are wrong. > [@](#): > > There’s also some allusions in Genesis, as well. No there aren’t. You’re thinking of Sodom, but that story has nothing to do with homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/83 "2005-09-20T04:08:48Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Also, Diogenes, do you have some sort of anger management problem? I find no reason to make use of borderline-profanity and throw around insults just because you disagree with me. Even if you think me an idiot it shows a great deal of immaturity and lack of social grace to come out and say it. > > Some people get on an internet forum and completely forget all rules regarding civilized behavior. You came into this thread tossing out nothing but insults and incredibly offensive moral judgements against many of your fellow Dopers. You really are in no position to complain about being called a “dipshit” (which is the only insult or use of profanity in my entire post to you). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/84 "2005-09-20T07:52:12Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > This is a pretty mean spirited post. But I understand to a degree the deluded state of your mind. You were born with a problem, and it’s one that has lead you to sin. God still loves you though, and so do I. You’re not the first person to mock Christianity, whatever “shock value” you tried to generate with your cruel words is lost on me. I’m content to let you think what you want and I’ll think what I want, and ultimately hope that some day you find salvation. You know, I’m starting to sympathize with the Taliban. This Christian shit makes me want to fucking puke. But thanks, Martin, for so clearly demonstrating the point of this thread. **Reggie White was exactly like Martin Hyde**. In other words, a fucking scumbag more worthy of scorn and derision than praise. Fuck them both. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/85 "2005-09-20T13:17:20Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > There’s also some allusions in Genesis, as well. > > > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > > > No there aren’t. You’re thinking of Sodom, but that story has nothing to do with homosexuality. Yes, there is. He is thinking of Sodom, and he is right to do so. > [@](#): > > Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; > Gen 19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. > Gen 19:3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. > Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: > Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may **know** them. Bolding mine. These men weren’t wanting to just meet the men. This is the same Hebrew word _yada_ used in Genesis 4:1 (“And Adam **knew** Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.”) They wanted to commit homosexual acts. > [@](#): > > Gen 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, > Gen 19:7 And said, **I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.** > Gen 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not **known** man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. Lot recognized their sin for what it was. I can’t agree with his solution of giving up his daughters to these men (the man was a sinner like all of us), but at least the sexual acts they would have performed on them would have been natural. But to come out and say that homosexuality isn’t discouraged in Genesis is just ignorant. I mean, where do you think the terms ‘sodomite’ and ‘sodomy’ come from? And to sum up my beliefs on this thread, I have seen what I have always seen on threads like this. The Christian is unwilling to compromise his beliefs solely because a majority finds them to be unpopular. The Christian professes love, tolerance, and understanding for homosexuals, but refuses to tow the party line that his beliefs are wrong or ignorant. The “tolerant” majority viciously attacks the Christian and insults his beliefs, character, etc. Oh, by the way: I feel the same way as Martin, so feel free to hate me too. Just don’t expect me to hate you back. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/86 "2005-09-20T13:31:55Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > You know, I’m starting to sympathize with the Taliban. This Christian shit makes me want to fucking puke. > > But thanks, Martin, for so clearly demonstrating the point of this thread. **Reggie White was exactly like Martin Hyde**. In other words, a fucking scumbag more worthy of scorn and derision than praise. > > Fuck them both. Uh, careful there. Aren’t you fighting fire with fire? As far as the OP. I’m a Packer fan and a ‘Reggie on the field’ fan. I am impressed with some of his off the field accomplishments, but there are others that have my head spinning. IIRC, there was several hundred thousand dollars missing that was supposed to be earmarked for rebuilding one of Reggie’s churches down South that mysteriously burned down. He hit up the folks of Green Bay (and WI) for tons of money and the money just sort of disappeared… [From here.](http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:d7xiZstCIOkJ:www.jsonline.com/packer/news/sep05/354862.asp+money+missing+from+reggie+white%27s+church&hl=en) > [@](#): > > “Moreover, hundreds of thousands of dollars were raised in his name for a Tennessee church that was destroyed by arson in 1996. That church was never rebuilt. A key church official and a friend of White, Jerry Upton, was later sentenced to federal prison on cocaine trafficking and gun counts.” …and then some of the things he’s been quoted as saying… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/87 "2005-09-20T13:38:22Z")
In Hebrew, the word “Know” did not have a sexual meaning. Sorry, but the Bible itself says that the sin of Sodom was inhospitality: Ezekiel 16:49-49: “This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.” In the Bible, “Sodomite” just means a person from Sodom. The story of Sodom has nothing to do with homosexuality. I know that’s gravely disappointing to you. Too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce73a5/32.png) [@Go\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Blue)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/88 "2005-09-20T14:18:50Z")
The Packers and the NFL were celebrating White’s off-field life. At the request of his family it was a celebration of his whole life when they had the halftime ceremony, not just his football playing, but his hate as well. Shameful. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/89 "2005-09-20T14:24:05Z")
Dio, I’m still waiting for a response to my post #50. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/90 "2005-09-20T14:53:51Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I never insulted anyone in this thread. **Martin** , just because your head is so far up your own ass that you cannot understand why you’re hateful, condescending, and insulting, that don’t mean you aren’t. (I, at least, am man enough to admit when I insult someone.) > [@duffer](#): > > God forbid a man is allowed to state an opinion. Even if you don’t agree with it, isn’t the First Amendment still valid? This may be the stupidest thing you’ve ever written. Yes, Reggie White (and you) have every right to spew hatred and bigotry. The First Amendment protected White’s right to spout any inane and vile shit he wanted. It did not protect him from being told that his shit is inane and vile, which it was. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/91 "2005-09-20T15:02:27Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In Hebrew, the word “Know” did not have a sexual meaning. What? Then explain Genesis 4:1 “And Adam **knew** Eve his wife; **and she conceived, and bare Cain** …”, or 4:17 “And Cain **knew** his wife; **and she conceived, and bare Enoch** …”, or 4:25 “And Adam **knew his wife again** ; **and she bare a son** , and called his name Seth…”. Seems like “knowing” someone immediately precedes a birth. Tell me, what non-sexual meaning did “And Adam knew his wife again” have? It certainly couldn’t be that he knew _of_ her, he already did that. What about Genesis 19:8 that I quoted earlier “Behold now, I have two daughters which have not **known** man…”. These girls were virgins. Do you have another explanation of what “known” meant in these passages? I’m on the edge of my metaphorical seat… > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Sorry, but the Bible itself says that the sin of Sodom was inhospitality: > Ezekiel 16:49-49: “This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.” I fear you might be being disingenuous. For whatever reason, you left out verse 50. Ezekiel 16:50 “And they were haughty, and **committed abomination** before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” Bolding mine. Lack of hospitality is not abomination to God. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In the Bible, “sodomite” just means a person from Sodom. That’s true. However, it doesn’t carry that same meaning today. When someobody is described as a sodomite, it no longer means that they are from Sodom. In my dictionary, a sodomite is defined as “someone who engages in anal copulation (especially a male who engages in anal copulation with another male)”. So where, praytell, did the “sodom” portion of this noun come from? Methinks it is obvious. I can’t believe I am having to spell this out in such a basic manner. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The story of Sodom has nothing to do with homosexuality. I know that’s gravely disappointing to you. Too bad. It’s not disappointing to me, because your explanation is false (and a little absurd). The truth might be disappointing to you (though I’m not sure why, since it’s the truth). Too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/92 "2005-09-20T15:16:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t hate you for the things you’re saying. How does despise compare to hate? 'Cause I despise him. Can you despise someone without hating him? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/93 "2005-09-20T15:20:25Z")
Isn’t it a pit idiotic to point to the angels visiting Lot as proof that “God” destroyed Sodom because of homos? God had supposedly already decided to destroy the city before they showed up to warn Lot. The city’s treatment of the angels is irrelevant. Besides that fact that it’s a MYTHOLOGICAL STORY and not HISTORY, didn’t really happen and is moronic to base modern mores, laws and beliefs upon. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/94 "2005-09-20T15:57:37Z")
You are right in that God (no quotation marks necessary) had already decided to destroy the city of Sodom. But he sent the angel to rescue Lot and his family because, though they were sinners in their own right, they were not participants nor were they complicit in the sin of Sodom (note verse 8 where Lot recognizes the sin and asks the men of Sodom “I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.”. As for this account being a mythological story and not history, I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/95 "2005-09-20T16:20:15Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Lot recognized their sin for what it was. I can’t agree with his solution of giving up his daughters to these men (the man was a sinner like all of us), but at least the sexual acts they would have performed on them would have been natural. Wow. Gay sex is worse than rape? And you call your belief system _moral_? And, hey, just for shits and giggles, why dontcha define “natural” for us? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/96 "2005-09-20T16:28:54Z")
> [@Go Blue](#): > > The Packers and the NFL were celebrating White’s off-field life. At the request of his family it was a celebration of his whole life when they had the halftime ceremony, not just his football playing, but his hate as well. > > Shameful. Hate is a strong word. Just cause you disagree with someone’s convictions or lack thereof doesn’t automatically mean you hate them or that person. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/97 "2005-09-20T17:05:10Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > Would you describe Abraham Lincoln as hateful? > > How about George Washington, John Adams, or Thomas Jefferson? > > Or Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/98 "2005-09-20T17:31:09Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > What? > > Then explain Genesis 4:1 “And Adam **knew** Eve his wife; **and she conceived, and bare Cain** …”, or 4:17 “And Cain **knew** his wife; **and she conceived, and bare Enoch** …”, or 4:25 “And Adam **knew his wife again** ; **and she bare a son** , and called his name Seth…”. Seems like “knowing” someone immediately precedes a birth. Tell me, what non-sexual meaning did “And Adam knew his wife again” have? It certainly couldn’t be that he knew _of_ her, he already did that. What about Genesis 19:8 that I quoted earlier “Behold now, I have two daughters which have not **known** man…”. These girls were virgins. Do you have another explanation of what “known” meant in these passages? I’m on the edge of my metaphorical seat… _Ya’da_ primarily means “to know a fact.” In a very few cases in the Bible it carries a figurative sexual meaning, but that context is always made clear and it’s always with heterosexuals. I was typing fast this morning because I had to go out for a while and I unintentionally made my meaning unclear. When I said that the Hebrew word translated as “know” did not have a sexual meaning, I meant that it did not have a sexual meaning _in that verse_. The people of Sodom (and the Hebrew can be translated as either “all the people,” or “all the men”), wanted to _interrogate_ the angels, not fuck them. Even if you want to insist that they wanted to fuck them, the crime would still be rape, not homosexuality, \* per se\*, and the reason its bad is because they are guests in the city. Apparently, it would have been just fine for Lot to let them gang rape his daughters (who would have had to have been quite young if they were virgins…probably under 14). The fact that the angels were guests is what matters, not the particuar brand of hostility which was visited on them. ANY hostility was bad. More importantly, the angel incident _was not why Sodom was destroyed_. That decision had already ben made. The story about the angels had nothing to do with it. > [@](#): > > I fear you might be being disingenuous. For whatever reason, you left out verse 50. > Ezekiel 16:50 “And they were haughty, and **committed abomination** before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” I can’t seem to find anything in there about homosexuality, so why are you quoting it? > [@](#): > > Bolding mine. Lack of hospitality is not abomination to God. Yes it is. > [@](#): > > That’s true. However, it doesn’t carry that same meaning today. When someobody is described as a sodomite, it no longer means that they are from Sodom. In my dictionary, a sodomite is defined as “someone who engages in anal copulation (especially a male who engages in anal copulation with another male)”. So where, praytell, did the “sodom” portion of this noun come from? Methinks it is obvious. I can’t believe I am having to spell this out in such a basic manner. > It’s not disappointing to me, because your explanation is false (and a little absurd). The truth might be disappointing to you (though I’m not sure why, since it’s the truth). Too bad. What it means today is completely irrelevant to what it means in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/99 "2005-09-20T18:08:03Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Oh, by the way: I feel the same way as Martin, so feel free to hate me too. Just don’t expect me to hate you back. I’m sure it would make you feel better to think that people hate you. I for one don’t, so sorry to disappoint you. I feel quite a bit of contempt for you, if that makes you feel any better. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/100 "2005-09-20T20:11:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Wow. Gay sex is worse than rape? And you call your belief system _moral_? > > And, hey, just for shits and giggles, why dontcha define “natural” for us? I never said gay sex was worse than rape. I don’t condone rape – it’s vicious, disgusting, and horrible. Also, I’m thinking that the angels would not have willingly submitted to sex with the men of Sodom, and that the men of Sodom were looking for some men to rape. Thus, rape was on their mind regardless. So let’s not say that I am implying that anything is “better” or “worse” than rape. I just said that at least with Lot’s daughers, though they would have been raped, the sex acts would have been _natural_. My definition of natural is that the male genitalia is designed for use with the female genitalia. This is natural, and the way they were intended to be used. Again, I can’t believe I am having to explain this in such simple terms. This isn’t rocket science…this is basic biology. To put it simply, tab A goes into slot B. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Ya’da primarily means “to know a fact.” In a very few cases in the Bible it carries a figurative sexual meaning, but that context is always made clear and it’s always with heterosexuals. I agree that you have correctly identified the primary definition of Ya’da, but you are incorrect in that it is only used in terms of heterosexuals. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The people of Sodom (and the Hebrew can be translated as either “all the people,” or “all the men”), wanted to interrogate the angels, not fuck them. I can see how one could come to that conclusion, but it seems to me that one would have to torture the reading quite a bit to come away with that conclusion. With this definition, the men of Sodom came to Lot’s door, pressing against it hard enough to almost break the door down, just so that they could get in and _interrogate_ them? Following this train of thought, Lot offers his daughters and says (with your translation) “Oh men of Sodom. Do not this wicked thing of showing bad hospitality. Here are my daughters. They haven’t been _interrogated_ by man before. _Interrogate_ them all you want.” I just don’t see it. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Even if you want to insist that they wanted to fuck them, the crime would still be rape, not homosexuality, \* per se\*, and the reason its bad is because they are guests in the city. Apparently, it would have been just fine for Lot to let them gang rape his daughters (who would have had to have been quite young if they were virgins…probably under 14). The fact that the angels were guests is what matters, not the particuar brand of hostility which was visited on them. ANY hostility was bad. I agree that it would be rape, but since the angels appeared as men, this would not have been male/female rape, but male/male rape, or “sodomy”. This, to me, is the large problem. That is to say, I completely disagree with your characterization as “a lack of hospitality” being the sin of Sodom. I’ve never heard this before. But I will do some independent study on the off chance that I might be wrong. I encourage you to do some study of your own. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I can’t seem to find anything in there about homosexuality, so why are you quoting it? To finish the beginning of the description of Sodom’s sins that began in the previous verse. However, it doesn’t come right out and say “they committed sodomy” so feel free to strike that portion, ignore it, whatever you wish. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What it means today is completely irrelevant to what it means in the Bible. I completely disagree. Are you honestly saying that when people think of “sodomy”, they do not think of anal sex? When somebody is referred to as a sodomite, you honestly think “Hmm…that person must be quite inhospitable…”? I didn’t just make up these definitions, you know. They are common. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271.md?page=6)