# Reggie White is Not a Great Man - Shame on the Packers and the NFL **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271 "2005-09-18T22:54:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/161 "2005-09-21T18:56:27Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > Not trying to be confusing, and I hope that I have clarified my position Both our positions are clear. I am not going to keep going, because I am already getting repetitive. We have different interpretations. Neither of us is going to give in. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/162 "2005-09-21T18:57:35Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Homosexuality has always existed in every city and every time, even if it wasn’t called that. So it’s a pretty safe bet that homosexuality existed in the city. If you believe God destroyed the city for that reason, then why has he left so many others over the centuries that also have homosexuality within its walls? Great question. I don’t believe God destroyed the city solely because of homosexuality. As far as I know, God does not view that sin any worse than any other sin. As for why other cities have been spared, good question. I believe one reason is that there is no entire city where there is not at least 10 good men (the caveat that Abraham made with God to save Sodom). It could also be that those in Sodom weren’t just sinners, they were blatant, in your face, unapologetic, full-time sinners: > [@](#): > > Genesis 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD **exceedingly.** > [@](#): > > Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they **declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not.** Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/163 "2005-09-21T19:04:48Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > Great question. I don’t believe God destroyed the city solely because of homosexuality. As far as I know, God does not view that sin any worse than any other sin. As for why other cities have been spared, good question. I believe one reason is that there is no entire city where there is not at least 10 good men (the caveat that Abraham made with God to save Sodom). It could also be that those in Sodom weren’t just sinners, they were blatant, in your face, unapologetic, full-time sinners: So why do you believe homosexuality was among the sins God destroyed them for when 1- the Bible never one time says so and 2- the only sins **[God Himself](http://pulaski71.yearbookhigh.com/images/don_knotts.gif)** names is hubris/greed/inhospitality? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/164 "2005-09-21T19:10:15Z")
Brilliant thought, **Sampiro**. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/165 "2005-09-21T19:11:46Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > So why do you believe homosexuality was among the sins God destroyed them for when > > 1- the Bible never one time says so and > > 2- the only sins **[God Himself](http://pulaski71.yearbookhigh.com/images/don_knotts.gif)** names is hubris/greed/inhospitality? Because I believe the context in Genesis 19:5-8 makes it clear that their was homosexual activity (consensual or not) in the city. As these verses are likely not the first instance of homosexuality, I believe it is reasonable to assume that homosexuality existed in the city before this. This is just one of the sins that led to their punishment. Not that this sin was worse than others, just one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/166 "2005-09-21T19:20:18Z")
Any idea why the Jews (a Semitic people native to New York City but who were mentioned in the Bible) believe that inhospitality rather than gay sex was the sin of the city? They’ve been studying these Scriptures longer than anybody else (in fact one might say Jews wrote the book on the Old Testament) and this is their conclusion. Later all of Israel was conquered by the Greeks (a people who didn’t have a national anthem for thousands of years solely because they couldn’t find a word that rhymed with _homoeroticism_). Maybe by then God was more gay friendly or was just out of brimstone. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/167 "2005-09-21T19:25:36Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > I believe one reason is that there is no entire city where there is not at least 10 good men (the caveat that Abraham made with God to save Sodom). It could also be that those in Sodom weren’t just sinners, they were blatant, in your face, unapologetic, full-time sinners: It could be that there is not God to do the smiting, too. That seems to simplest explanation to me. I’ll tell you what. If your God, the hateful, meanspirited fellow who is going to torture me for eternity because I don’t bow to him and I like to suck cock, really exists, then I defy him. I mock him. I dare him to strike me down right now. 5 4 3 2 1 Still waiting… 'Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/168 "2005-09-21T19:25:54Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Any idea why the Jews (a Semitic people native to New York City but who were mentioned in the Bible) believe that inhospitality rather than gay sex was the sin of the city? They’ve been studying these Scriptures longer than anybody else (in fact one might say Jews wrote the book on the Old Testament) and this is their conclusion. One of the sins was inhospitability. In fact, it was called out in Ezekiel 16:49. I don’t deny that. > [@Sampiro](#): > > Later all of Israel was conquered by the Greeks (a people who didn’t have a national anthem for thousands of years solely because they couldn’t find a word that rhymed with _homoeroticism_). Maybe by then God was more gay friendly or was just out of brimstone. Or maybe they just weren’t as exceeding sinful, so sinful that there were less than 10 righteous people in the entire city. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/169 "2005-09-21T19:30:59Z")
I’m still here, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/170 "2005-09-21T19:31:56Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > Because I believe the context in Genesis 19:5-8 makes it clear that their was homosexual activity (consensual or not) in the city. Could you please say what in those passages - I just read them _again_ - makes it clear to you that they’re talking about rape or homosexual sex? The word “know” is inconclusive by itself and the evidence that it’s NOT the “Biblical sense” seems good. So you’re basing this mostly on the daughter thing. Is there something else? Are you just playing psychologist with Lot? I’m not getting this. While we’re here, I’ve got a question for the people who know the Greek and Hebrew and so forth. I’ve read the following statements (KJV here), which do seem to condemn homosexuality. Is there some other meaning here? [quote=Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.[/quote] > [@Leviticus 20:13](#): > > If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. I think posters who know me know what this actually means to me, but I’d like to figure out what’s what here. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/171 "2005-09-21T19:40:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Could you please say what in those passages - I just read them _again_ - makes it clear to you that they’re talking about rape or homosexual sex? The word “know” is inconclusive by itself and the evidence that it’s NOT the “Biblical sense” seems good. So you’re basing this mostly on the daughter thing. Is there something else? Are you just playing psychologist with Lot? I’m not getting this. I see the use of the word know in Genesis 19:5 and the use of the word known in Genesis 19:8 to mean that both instances are talking about sex, since the same word is used for both, thus leading me to see them speaking about sex in this context. Maybe I am seeing something that isn’t there, but that is what I am going on. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/172 "2005-09-21T19:45:05Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > I see the use of the word know in Genesis 19:5 and the use of the word known in Genesis 19:8 to mean that both instances are talking about sex, since the same word is used for both, thus leading me to see them speaking about sex in this context. Maybe I am seeing something that isn’t there, but that is what I am going on. So, I take it you’ve never heard of a homonym? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/173 "2005-09-21T19:46:23Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > I see the use of the word know in Genesis 19:5 and the use of the word known in Genesis 19:8 to mean that both instances are talking about sex, since the same word is used for both, thus leading me to see them speaking about sex in this context. Maybe I am seeing something that isn’t there, but that is what I am going on. Okay. You mean that it’s the same word in Greek or Hebrew as well? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/174 "2005-09-21T19:47:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, I take it you’ve never heard of a homonym? Is that some kind of a gay thing? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/175 "2005-09-21T19:56:33Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > I see the use of the word know in Genesis 19:5 and the use of the word known in Genesis 19:8 to mean that both instances are talking about sex, since the same word is used for both, thus leading me to see them speaking about sex in this context. Maybe I am seeing something that isn’t there, but that is what I am going on. The context of the Sodom story does not indicate a sexual connotation. In the absence of a contextual reason to read a word figuratively, the default is to read it literally. Even if you were correct that the connotation was sexual (something which I do not grant), it would still not represent a condemnation of homosexuality _per se_ but of the brutalization of guests in the city. You cannot equate a condemnation of homosexual rape to a condemnation of homosexuality any more than you could compare a condemnation of heterosexual rape (something Lot seems to have no problem with) to a condemnation of heterosexuality. And the entire discussion about the angels still misses the point that the incident was not the reason that Sodom was destroyed. At this point, you’re hanging our entire argument on the word “abominations” and insisting that those abominations _must_ have included homosexuality, never mind that Ezekiel spells out what the crimes were and does not include homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/176 "2005-09-21T19:57:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, I take it you’ve never heard of a homonym? I have, but I do not believe this is so from the context. **Marley23** , I don’t know if it is the same word in Greek. But they are both the same Hebrew word. It is true that not every use of the word **yada** carries a sexual connotation, but I believe that it does in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/177 "2005-09-21T20:08:01Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The context of the Sodom story does not indicate a sexual connotation. In the absence of a contextual reason to read a word figuratively, the default is to read it literally. I believe I am reading it literally. In Genesis 19:8, the word known has a sexual connotation, so I do not see it as a stretch to apply the meaning to Genesis 19:5. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Even if you were correct that the connotation was sexual (something which I do not grant), it would still not represent a condemnation of homosexuality _per se_ but of the brutalization of guests in the city. You cannot equate a condemnation of homosexual rape to a condemnation of homosexuality any more than you could compare a condemnation of heterosexual rape (something Lot seems to have no problem with) to a condemnation of heterosexuality. I do not see it as a condemnation of homosexuality. I see it as evidence that homosexuality existed in the city. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And the entire discussion about the angels still misses the point that the incident was not the reason that Sodom was destroyed. I have already recanted this position. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > At this point, you’re hanging our entire argument on the word “abominations” and insisting that those abominations _must_ have included homosexuality, never mind that Ezekiel spells out what the crimes were and does not include homosexuality. I believe they did include homosexuality, as I have pointed out several times from Genesis 19:5-8. I think I am just going to just bow out of this thread as I feel I have made my point and no minds are being changed. I will continue checking the thread, though. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/178 "2005-09-21T20:13:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You cannot equate a condemnation of homosexual rape to a condemnation of homosexuality any more than you could compare a condemnation of heterosexual rape (something Lot seems to have no problem with) to a condemnation of heterosexuality. Except it wouldn’t have been rape because they were Lot’s daughters and he gave permission. They’re just girls, they got no say in the matter. That Lot was a stand up guy. > [@Twin](#): > > I see the use of the word know in Genesis 19:5 and the use of the word known in Genesis 19:8 to mean that both instances are talking about sex, since the same word is used for both, thus leading me to see them speaking about sex in this context. Maybe I am seeing something that isn’t there, but that is what I am going on. Are you now ignoring Gen. 19:9 > [@](#): > > And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. It explicitly states that they want to “judge” the sojourner, not rape, not have sex with. Judge seems to be more in line with **Dio** ’s interpretation than yours. ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/179 "2005-09-21T20:37:26Z")
People, people…Before **GO Blue** comes back in with another raging tantrum, could we get back to football? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271/180 "2005-09-21T20:43:22Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > It explicitly states that they want to “judge” the sojourner, not rape, not have sex with. Judge seems to be more in line with **Dio** ’s interpretation than yours. Hmm. Other translations make it seem like they’re talking about Lot himself being a sojourner and being out of line trying to judge them. So nevermind. Okay, **ltfire**. Football is overrated and overhyped. People who get worked up over the Super Bowl or whose team is better than the other are immature and stupid. How’s that? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reggie-white-is-not-a-great-man-shame-on-the-packers-and-the-nfl/322271.md?page=10)