# Rehabilitate Yoda & Obi-Wan Kenobi **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 31, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347 "2010-05-31T02:50:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/21 "2010-06-01T01:40:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’ve just surprised at the level of ignorance of Star Wars in this thread… > > Yes that’s bit of a problem but the Expanded Universe material has greatly detailed the bond between the two. The OP asked how to fix the MOVIES. I don’t give a shit about the Expanded Universe. I have a four year old child, a job, and interests outside of Star Wars; it would be impossible for me to find the time to keep up on every detail of Star Wars canon. I’m aware of some of the EU - I’ve played most of the Star Wars video games, so I can tell you who Darth Revan was and I have some inkling of who Admiral Thrawn is - but **the movies must stand on their own.** The movies are the movies; their quality is determined by what’s in the movies, from the first frame to the last, and nothing else. They are not redeemed by something in a paperback or a video game. > [@](#): > > The Republic literally had no army at this point, due to it being abolished by the Ruusan Reformation. That’s not in the movie, so within the universe of the movies, it never happened and is never explained. If it’s not mentioned in the movie, then insofar as a viewer of the movies is concerned, it didn’t happen. [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] Curtis, I think it’s fair to say that few of us find Anakin Skywalker’s redemption even remotely convincing. [/QUOTE] Fair enough, but again, the OP is asking how to fix the prequels, so having them change what is established fact - that Darth Vader is Luke’s father - would just be silly. While Vader’s redemption is more of the Christian variety than the convincing kind, that’s no excuse for the prequels to lick donkey balls. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/22 "2010-06-01T01:56:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The OP asked how to fix the MOVIES. > > I don’t give a shit about the Expanded Universe. I have a four year old child, a job, and interests outside of Star Wars; it would be impossible for me to find the time to keep up on every detail of Star Wars canon. I’m aware of some of the EU - I’ve played most of the Star Wars video games, so I can tell you who Darth Revan was and I have some inkling of who Admiral Thrawn is - but **the movies must stand on their own.** The movies are the movies; their quality is determined by what’s in the movies, from the first frame to the last, and nothing else. They are not redeemed by something in a paperback or a video game. > That’s not in the movie, so within the universe of the movies, it never happened and is never explained. If it’s not mentioned in the movie, then insofar as a viewer of the movies is concerned, it didn’t happen. Well Star Wars is attempting to depict an entire galaxy. To use an analogy a World War II movie will probably leave you with countless questions about the war. Plus much of it is implicit in the movies: Anakin and Obi-Wan joking about how many they saved each other’s lives and the debate over the Military **Creation** Act. Fair enough, but again, the OP is asking how to fix the prequels, so having them change what is established fact - that Darth Vader is Luke’s father - would just be silly. While Vader’s redemption is more of the Christian variety than the convincing kind, that’s no excuse for the prequels to lick donkey balls. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/23 "2010-06-01T02:00:18Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Curtis, I think it’s fair to say that few of us find Anakin Skywalker’s redemption even remotely convincing. Even ignoring the prequels, he was complicit in the murder of billions of persons on Alderaan alone. Murdering the Emperor five minutes before he died doesn’t come close to making up for it. Its not so much redeeming your evils tit for tat but repenting and realising what you did was evil and trying to make up for it as much as you can. This is in a sense “Christian”. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/24 "2010-06-01T02:25:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Much of what you’re saying destroys the basic story of the Star Wars saga which the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Except that Anakin is never redeemed. Throwing your boss into a furnace because he’s messing with your son doesn’t get you off the hook for multiple mass murders, torture, a 15 year reign of terror… Hitler wouldn’t be “redeemed” if he shot another Nazi for messing with his dog and Vader’s body count was way, WAY higher. Plus, Anakin wasn’t orignally Luke’s dad–that was thrown in at the last minute in Empire. And the story makes much more sense if he’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/25 "2010-06-01T02:36:17Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Except that Anakin is never redeemed. Throwing your boss into a furnace because he’s messing with your son doesn’t get you off the hook for multiple mass murders, torture, a 15 year reign of terror… Hitler wouldn’t be “redeemed” if he shot another Nazi for messing with his dog and Vader’s body count was way, WAY higher. He’s not redeemed by a person but by the Force because he realizes he has done evil and is repentent for it. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/26 "2010-06-01T03:00:37Z")
I’m sure that’s a comfort to his billions of victims. I don’t accept the idea that you’re off the hook for all the evil you do as long as you feel bad about it seconds before you die, hence my version. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/27 "2010-06-01T03:07:23Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Plus, Anakin wasn’t orignally Luke’s dad–that was thrown in at the last minute in Empire. And the story makes much more sense if he’s not. Why does the story make more sense if he’s not? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/28 "2010-06-01T03:15:09Z")
Because, just for one thing, it fixes the whole “Yoda and Obi-Wan are lying sacks of shit…from a _certain_ point of view” crap. Suddenly, they’re a whole less morally diseased than they are in the “Let’s manipulate the kid into killing his dad and take away his ability to choose freely if he wants to…oh, and leave him emotionally unprepared when Dad inevitably tells him the truth” version. ---
**Author:** ![notsoheavyd3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85e7bf/32.png) [@notsoheavyd3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notsoheavyd3)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/29 "2010-06-01T03:49:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s not in the movie, so within the universe of the movies, it never happened and is never explained. If it’s not mentioned in the movie, then insofar as a viewer of the movies is concerned, it didn’t happen. True, I think we’re thinking much the same thing. I had to go look up what that reform thing actually was because if it was in the movies it was barely mention. So like you said, it pretty much didn’t happen as far as a viewer of the movies is concerned. All I saw was the Jedi come across clones who are never given the choice on whether they want to be soldiers or even a draft lottery.(I mean I could understand if some got brought into the military by the luck of the draw but also draft other life forms from the republic since that would actually be fair.) Pretty much all the clones become soldiers so it’s a slave army. Actually I looked up that reform thing the other poster mentioned and like you say it’s from the EU. It’s some big event a 1000 years before the movies which makes it worse. (The Jedi disolve their military and nobody things maybe we should have the republican army/navy/etc?) Like I wrote earlier, Obi-Wan at points comes off as a blind follower of the light side of the force and is down right brutally unemotional about things. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/30 "2010-06-01T06:29:09Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Plus, Anakin wasn’t orignally Luke’s dad–that was thrown in at the last minute in Empire. And the story makes much more sense if he’s not. Cite? Not that I’d be surprised if you were right, but much of the commentary [on this TV Tropes page](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FromACertainPointOfView) (see first entry under “Film”) makes some convincing arguments that it was intended all along. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/31 "2010-06-01T21:18:41Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Cite? Not that I’d be surprised if you were right, but much of the commentary [on this TV Tropes page](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FromACertainPointOfView) (see first entry under “Film”) makes some convincing arguments that it was intended all along. I think Obi-wan’s original line from ANH is enough of a citation: > [@](#): > > Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father While I can see “murder” being applied to two aspects of the same person (one part killed the other), “betrayal” is really a concept that requires two separate people, or at least one person with severe multiple-personality disorder (yes, there is the concept of self-betrayal, but that is completely different than normal betrayal). It really requires some pretty tortured logic to explain how Vader betrayed Anakin if they are both one person. It makes much more sense to presume that Anakin, Obi-wan, and Vader were originally all 3 different compatriots. Uncle Owen simply doesn’t want Luke to end up caught up with things like Jedi (that ancient religion?) and military campaigns. After all, that’s how he lost his brother. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/32 "2010-06-01T21:38:05Z")
Make Yoda not be a muppet. Have him be played by a human being with some makeup on instead of him being a freaking muppet. It was ridiculous for this hot-shit Jedi master to be a fucking muppet. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/33 "2010-06-02T01:53:27Z")
Yeah but originally he was the “secret master” not some sort of green, light sabre weilding Ms Piggy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/34 "2010-06-02T01:57:19Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Because, just for one thing, it fixes the whole “Yoda and Obi-Wan are lying sacks of shit…from a _certain_ point of view” crap. Suddenly, they’re a whole less morally diseased than they are in the “Let’s manipulate the kid into killing his dad and take away his ability to choose freely if he wants to…oh, and leave him emotionally unprepared when Dad inevitably tells him the truth” version. Hmm. What if it’s the exact opposite of that? I mean, imagine the audience could somehow get shown how everything would’ve played out in the alternative; take as a starting point how Obi-Wan howled that Anakin was supposed to be the chosen one – and spell out that, if not for redeemable Darth Vader stepping in to replace Count Dooku exactly as it played out, then Palpatine and Dooku conquer the galaxy with no trouble at all. (Obi-Wan doesn’t know details, mind you; just make clear that he knows the prophecy and is correct.) And then likewise make explicit that, once it’s Palpatine and _ **Vader** _ rather than Palpatine and Dooku, telling Luke the truth right off the bat equals automatic fail: \*“I have something here for you. Your father would have wanted you to have this when you were old enough: your father’s light saber.” “You say my father would have wanted me to have it?” “Well, I assume so. Granted, all I really know is that I had to hack off his limbs to get the thing away from him, but, yeah, figure he’d want the best for you out if not for me and mine tricking him into thinking you were dead.” “Wait, what?” “Yeah, I chopped him up into little bits when I left him for dead. Joke’s on me, huh? Now he’s powerful enough to rule the galaxy with you by his side. Just thought I’d give you all of this up front. We cool?”\* ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/35 "2010-06-02T07:29:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Surprisingly, that’s not true. If you take the premise that the Star Wars movies were the result of an RPG campaign that went off the rails at points, and further take the premise that the player playing Jar-Jar is an eight-year-old girl, the [character](http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0017.html) [actually](http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0018.html) [works](http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0020.html). Uh oh. That makes much too much sense. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/36 "2010-06-02T18:32:13Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > C)Luke turns to Yoda and says “You told me if I went half trained, all was lost. But going saved the day…you screwed up you green puppet-turd!” But it didn’t. Luke didn’t accomplish anything by going to Cloud City. Lando had already rescued everyone except Han. All Luke managed to do by going there was get his ass kicked by Vader. Where I think the ball got dropped on this plot point (and, for that matter, on the “Ben lies like a cheap rug” plot point) was in it not having repercussions in RotJ. Luke finding out that Vader was his dad too soon should have very nearly led him to the Dark Side, and a sense of betrayal by Obi-Wan should have been a big element of this. We should certainly not have had Glowy-Wan Kenobi chilling on a fallen log on Dagobah, pulling post facto rationalizations out of his insubstantial ass. Luke should have been outraged at Ben’s lie, and Ben should not have materialized to explain himself. This should have very nearly led him to siding with Vader, expressing ideas and taking actions that would later be mirrored by Anakin Skywalker in the prequel trilogy, except of course that Luke turns away at the last minute and does not fall to the Dark Side. On the other hand, I don’t really have a problem with Anakin getting to show up as a force ghost at the end. I never really viewed the Force as a moral system, just a part of the natural order. One is either aligned with the Light Side, or with the Dark Side, and this alignment happens to coincide with certain concepts of morality, but the Force itself is not a moral agent. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/37 "2010-06-02T21:13:32Z")
When did Vader kill billions? The Death Star blowing up Alderaan, that was Tarkin’s order, not Vader’s. Even with Jedi Purge his personal scorecard wasn’t that impressive. Most of them got taken out by friggin clones. Not arguing he wasn’t still beyond simple redemption via last minute face turn, I mean he wiped out that room of Younglings, but this whole billions thing seems off. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/38 "2010-06-02T22:05:30Z")
He slaughtered a bunch of kids. That alone makes him a douche bag. And the prequels weren’t very good but one thing always bugged me. If the midichlorians are such a big deal then how did little teeny Yoda have so many? Small nit pick when there are so many more to point out. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347/39 "2010-06-03T16:47:14Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > And the prequels weren’t very good but one thing always bugged me. If the midichlorians are such a big deal then how did little teeny Yoda have so many? > > Small nit pick when there are so many more to point out. IIRC, they never say midichlorians _cause_ a knack for the Force; merely that a high count _correlates_ with it. Possibly like flies buzzing around manure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitate-yoda-obi-wan-kenobi/541347.md?page=1)