# Rehabilitating "political correctness"s' negative image **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600 "2017-01-30T18:59:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/221 "2017-02-12T19:11:31Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > What would you say to people who dismiss arguments that transgendered people should be allowed to use the bathroom of their identified gender in order to avoid harassment as “pandering to political correctness”? Is that not an actual problem? I have yet to have seen an argument centered around attacking political correctness, that wasn’t either an avoidance of dealing with the actual issue, or a deflection of the entire subject. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/222 "2017-02-12T19:14:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > By dismissing it as “political correctness?” Because, contrary to the rest of your post, that’s why the term was created, and what it means: it’s a label people use to make them feel better about ignoring someone’s legitimate grievance. I’m not clear on what you are attacking in my post. Nor is it at all clear what your take on political correctness is. The term political correctness was NOT created to make people feel better about ignoring someone’s legitimate grievance. The term political correctness is actually very old, a lot older than the modern applications it is being applied to. I suspect that you don’t understand what I posted. Please clarify, and I will answer your question, whatever it actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/223 "2017-02-12T19:31:26Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Sorry, I have neither the time or the patience to read through everyone else’s responses, so pardon if I say something redundant. > > But the answer to the opening proposal is a flat “No.” Don’t even bother to begin to try to “fix” or “reconstitute” or otherwise “rehabilitate” Political Correctness. > > Not only has it been thoroughly defeated, it was a wrong-headed idea to begin with. > > Here is what Political Correctness ALWAYS is (note, this includes the current and past RIGHT WING versions of PC as well): a lame and ineffective attempt at an automated and mindless shortcut. > > What opponents of things like racism, sexism and so on need to do, isn’t to try to persuade people who are already inured to it, to have another look see at the old rhetoric. What they need to do, is to go back to focusing on the ACTUAL PROBLEMS. > > When someone tries to trick you into giving up on your cause because you spelled it wrong, or used words they didn’t care for, or any other such side issue, the best reaction isn’t to try to change their minds about grammar and presentation forms, the thing to do is to stop them in their tracks, and reiterate that it is the PROBLEM that has to be fixed, and that the rhetoric about it is just their way of avoiding their very real responsibility for the difficulty. > > The creation of what came to be called “political correctness,” was due to people who wanted to stop having to work on ACTUAL concerns about equality and justice, and set up an automated system, so that they could go back to sleep. All in all, it was the equivalent of insisting that all rapists use the words “please” and “ms victim” while going about doing as they wished anyway, and when that failed to prevent rapes, they tried to automate rape prevention by adding more details to the nomenclature restrictions. > > All in all, it was every bit the failure that the Right wing’s trick was, where they tried (and are trying again) to use censorship alone to “prevent” crimes. If no one is allowed to TALK about rape, then it ceases to be a problem. Would you mind _defining_ “political correctness”? Because this is now the fourth or fifth clearly distinct usage of the term in _this thread_ (contrast the way you’re using it with the way **octopus** is using it), and I honestly have no idea what you actually _mean_ by the term. Which would sort of support the point made by me, **Miller** , [Moviebob](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQCNS4eGmuY), and many others - that “PC” is almost excusively used as a way for jerks to feel self-righteous about being jerks. > [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > I’m not clear on what you are attacking in my post. Nor is it at all clear what your take on political correctness is. Neither is yours. Many of us probably did not understand what you meant. Because “political correctness” is not a _thing_. It’s a snarl word, meant to impugn any given thing related to not being a dick to other people, so when you start talking about it seriously, it’s best you define it, because depending on who you talk to, the umbrella of political correctness can contain anything from objecting to casual racism like “You could starve a wetback by hiding his food stamps under his work boots” to objecting to trigger warnings and safe spaces to whatever else. It is, on its own, _virtually meaningless_, except as a way to tar the “other”. > [@](#): > > The term political correctness was NOT created to make people feel better about ignoring someone’s legitimate grievance. The term political correctness is actually very old, a lot older than the modern applications it is being applied to. That’s how it’s being used though. Case in point, from earlier in the thread: > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > What needs to be rehabilitated is how we think about the concepts people label political correctness. That we stop letting people get away with this bullshit tactic of saying something stupid and bigoted, and defending themselves by accusing others of being “politically correct”. That we call out shit like, well, [this](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/30/political-correctness-how-the-right-invented-phantom-enemy-donald-trump): > > “You’ve called women you don’t like ‘fat pigs,’ ‘dogs,’ ‘slobs,’ and ‘disgusting animals’,” Kelly pointed out. “You once told a contestant on Celebrity Apprentice it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees …” > > “I think the big problem this country has is being politically correct,” Trump answered, to audience applause. “I’ve been challenged by so many people, I don’t frankly have time for total political correctness. And to be honest with you, this country doesn’t have time either.” > > Because what is being asked of Trump in that scenario is not “why weren’t you politically correct”. It was “Why did you say so many misogynistic things?” And Trump’s response was to accuse her of calling him “politically incorrect”. > > So, in other words, this exchange between a journalist and a candidate for _the president of the united states_ happened: > > K: “You said misogynist thing X, Y, and Z. How does this gel with the temperament of the presidency?” > T: “Stop being so politically correct.” ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/224 "2017-02-12T19:34:51Z")
So here we go again. There have been, that I remember, two previous threads about PC. One was something along the lines of “If you are against PC then you are a bigot” and the second was from 30 March 2016: [Why are some people so resistant to "political correctness"? - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=788814) Why are some people so resistant to “political correctness”? In response to the second thread I posted some examples of why PC is seen as ridiculous: "Examples (sorry no cites): 1. a Carleton University (in Ottawa, Canada) administrator, in order to avoid controversy, had the male/female signs (the pictograms with stick figures in skirts (or not)) on washroom doors replaced by the ones that look like Volvo trademarks. A female student complained that it was sexist. 2. maybe this was just a Canadian thing, but does anyone remember the big “issue” about how man-hole covers had to be called “maintenance holes”? That didn’t seem to last too long. 3. how about “animal companions” instead of “pets”. I wouldn’t want to offend the cats would I? 4. an issue (there were a few magazine articles about this, back in the day) about “waiter” and “waitress”. Apparently even “waitron” was a suggested alternative - maybe in Star Trek - really? 5. in the late '80s/early '90s there was, for a while, an issue about how we shouldn’t call children “kids” 6. how about the “holidays” instead of Christmas? Btw “Christmas” isn’t exclusive - I’m secular but the period of time towards the end of December is Christmas. Calling it something else changes nothing. Note: maybe we should ban “holiday” since it’s a contraction of “holy day” maybe we should ban “goodbye” since it’s a contraction of “god be with ye” 7. there was also a issue about some female university students who wanted their Bachelors degrees to be called something else - like, a Maiden of Arts (or science or whatever). Meanwhile in the Royal Canadian Navy, a female Ordinary Seaman, Able Seaman, Leading Seaman, or Master Seaman is (how terrible) an Ordinary, Able, Leading, or Master Seaman. But they do get paid the same salary to do the same work and we have a number of female combat and weapons officers. We’ve also had a female ship’s captain. If we treat people fairly and with the respect that they deserve I think that that’s what truly matters. [/QUOTE] And more recently (Nov 2015): * * * > **[Free yoga class at Ottawa university called off over 'cultural sensitivity...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/university-ottawa-yoga-cultural-sensitivity-1.3330441)** > > A yoga instructor who says her free class at the University of Ottawa was cancelled because of concerns over cultural appropriation believes the student union's issues are misplaced. Basically, free yoga classes offered at the University of Ottawa have been scrapped because of complaints by some students and volunteers about “cultural appropriation”. According to the instructor: “I guess it was this cultural appropriation issue because yoga originally comes from India,” she said on Sunday. "I told them, ‘Why don’t we just change the name of the course?’ It’s simple enough, just call it mindful stretching.… We’re not going through the finer points of scripture. We’re talking about basic physical awareness and how to stretch so that you feel good. “That went back and forth… The higher-ups at the student federation got involved, finally we got an email routed through the student federation basically saying they couldn’t get a French name and nobody wants to do it, so we’re going to cancel it for now.” So someone volunteers to teach a free course, and this is the outcome, thanks to PC." So can those in favour of PC please explain, based on the above, how PC is a good thing? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/225 "2017-02-12T20:53:44Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > So here we go again. There have been, that I remember, two previous threads about PC. One was something along the lines of “If you are against PC then you are a bigot” and the second was from 30 March 2016: [Why are some people so resistant to "political correctness"? - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=788814) > Why are some people so resistant to “political correctness”? > > In response to the second thread I posted some examples of why PC is seen as ridiculous: “Here we go again” indeed. > [@](#): > > "Examples (sorry no cites): > > 1. a Carleton University (in Ottawa, Canada) administrator, in order to avoid controversy, had the male/female signs (the pictograms with stick figures in skirts (or not)) on washroom doors replaced by the ones that look like Volvo trademarks. A female student complained that it was sexist. No cites means no _context_. I can’t find this story. I have no idea what the big deal is supposed to be here; a student complained. So what? Stupid people believe stupid things. Why should this reflect poorly on anyone or anything else? > [@](#): > > 1. maybe this was just a Canadian thing, but does anyone remember the big “issue” about how man-hole covers had to be called “maintenance holes”? That didn’t seem to last too long. Every single cite I found on this was someone complaining about political correctness. Couldn’t find a single case that actually cited this _happening_. Just a whole lot of people getting angry about it without any source. But even if it were, I again fail to see the _problem_. A city wanted to “degender” our language (where? In its own official communications? In public speech? What are you even _talking_ about? _This is the problem with making uncited claims!_), and part of that is the implication that these are “man holes”, holes _men_ use. There are female plumbers and technicians. A waste of time? Maybe. But a _bad_ thing? Assuming this actually existed, could you explain why it _bothers_ you so much? And how does this have anything to do with the previous example? How are they even remotely related? > [@](#): > > 1. how about “animal companions” instead of “pets”. I wouldn’t want to offend the cats would I? [Apparently this is a thing in ethics](https://phys.org/news/2011-05-pet-companion-animal-ethicists-term.html). How we talk about something changes how we view the thing in question. It is _not_, as the study’s author clearly pointed out, about _insulting_ our pets. It is about how _we_ see them. And once again, I have to ask - what does this have to do with _either_ of the previous examples? What’s the connecting line? What the fuck even _is_ this “PC”, and why would this be a silly thing? > [@](#): > > 1. an issue (there were a few magazine articles about this, back in the day) about “waiter” and “waitress”. Apparently even “waitron” was a suggested alternative - maybe in Star Trek - really? By who? For what? In what context? _What are you even talking about?_ After some googling I found [this article](http://www.culinarylore.com/food-history:waiter-waitress-server), which makes an entirely reasonable case for why we use “server” instead of waitress or waiter, based merely on the etymology of the words. I wonder - did you even _notice_ people saying, “Hi, I’m \, I’ll be your server today”? Did you even care? Why should you? > [@](#): > > 1. in the late '80s/early '90s there was, for a while, an issue about how we shouldn’t call children “kids” Why? The closest thing I found was [this article](http://blogs.babycenter.com/mom_stories/01092012dont-call-my-child-a-kid/) about a mother not wanting to use the term because it implied a relation to goats and whatnot. Which is silly. But to call it an “issue”? And what does this have to do with _any_ of the other examples? > [@](#): > > 1. how about the “holidays” instead of Christmas? Btw “Christmas” isn’t exclusive - I’m secular but the period of time towards the end of December is Christmas. Calling it something else changes nothing. > Note: maybe we should ban “holiday” since it’s a contraction of “holy day” > maybe we should ban “goodbye” since it’s a contraction of “god be with ye” :rolleyes: Referring to the period at the end of December as “the holidays” instead of “Christmas” recognizes that there are multiple faiths and denominations, not all of whom celebrate Christmas, and that there are numerous celebrations around that time period. I cannot for the life of me understand why _anyone_ has a problem with people choosing to say “happy holidays” instead of “merry Christmas”, except the kind of people who get defensive when reminded that not everyone is exactly like them. I’m still left at a bit of a loss as to why this is a bad thing. You are free as anyone else to say “Merry Christmas”. It’s just that “happy holidays” is less likely to alienate people who celebrate a different holiday. Or no holiday. > [@](#): > > 1. there was also a issue about some female university students who wanted their Bachelors degrees to be called something else - like, a Maiden of Arts (or science or whatever). I can’t find a _single_ article on this. But once again, same problem: _why is this a bad thing_? And what does this have to do with _any_ other item on your list? You throw out this long list of uncited, unverifiable issues with _no_ context and no way for the rest of us to understand them, and say, “Yeah, that’s what makes Political Correctness look silly!” And I have _no idea_ what you’re talking about! You haven’t defined the term, and as has been pointed out _numerous_ times, the term is a nebulous, vague _thing_, which can be used to describe anything from punching nazis to asking people why they said something reprehensibly misogynistic. It seems to me that all you’ve done is pull up a random list of cases where people got offended for the sake of making language more inclusive and it seemed silly to you. So don’t call it “PC”. Say what you _mean_ - “Here are some examples of why making language more inclusive is ridiculous”. And then, of course, you fail to explain _why_ it’s ridiculous, bring up examples from decades ago which have already been resolved, treat individual, personal grievances like they reflect on the rest of society, and so on and so forth. If I had such a loose filter, I wouldn’t need more than five minutes to make a similar list: “Here are some examples of why being a republican is ridiculous”. Just pop down to the Stupid Republican Idea of the Day thread and you have _literally thousands_. Or I could just copy the first 7 posts I see on FreeRepublican and call it a day. And they’d be considerably dumber and have considerably more ill intent than this. And meanwhile, we skip over why this shit _matters_ in the first place - how we _describe_ the world influences how we _see_ the world. When I say “seaman”, do you picture a woman? Now how about the guy in the navy recruiting office? Now how about when I say “policeman”? There’s no reason to gender these terms. There’s no reason why we should say “policeman” or “policewoman” instead of “police officer” in the general case, and a good reason why we shouldn’t - in the past, the female form of a profession very often had a stigma attached. Not a great reason to get offended, but there’s a reasonable argument to be made that the change from “waitress” to “server” was probably a good thing, and it’s something I hadn’t even _noticed_ until I googled it and thought back to the last times I ate at a chain store in the USA. > [@](#): > > [Yoga class cancelled at University of Ottawa over 'cultural issues' | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...vity-1.3330441) > > Basically, free yoga classes offered at the University of Ottawa have been scrapped because of complaints by some students and volunteers about “cultural appropriation”. > > According to the instructor: > > “I guess it was this cultural appropriation issue because yoga originally comes from India,” she said on Sunday. "I told them, ‘Why don’t we just change the name of the course?’ It’s simple enough, just call it mindful stretching.… We’re not going through the finer points of scripture. We’re talking about basic physical awareness and how to stretch so that you feel good. > > “That went back and forth… The higher-ups at the student federation got involved, finally we got an email routed through the student federation basically saying they couldn’t get a French name and nobody wants to do it, so we’re going to cancel it for now.” > > So someone volunteers to teach a free course, and this is the outcome, thanks to PC." > > So can those in favour of PC please explain, based on the above, how PC is a good thing? Maybe you could finish reading the article? Ahimakin said **they suspended the class as part of a review of all their programs to make them more interesting, accessible, inclusive and responsive to the needs of students**. He said they’re doing consultations on the idea of bringing a free yoga class back and could get a more accessible version of it as soon as the next semester starts in January. On Monday the University of Ottawa tweeted out a notice that it’s organizing free yoga sessions Dec. 1, 8 and 15 at its University Centre. **One yoga teacher at the school emailed CBC News to say the university does that during exams and through the summer so there are other yoga options on campus**. This is why _context_ matters. Because there are a lot of people who either unintentionally or intentionally misinterpret any given article on any subject related to universities and “political correctness” (whatever the fuck they take that to _mean_). Because sometimes the issue isn’t as clear-cut as “look at those stupid college kids”, and because most of the rest of the time, it’s a bit unfair, like the aforementioned picking of republican talking points from FreeRepublic. And meanwhile, as for why “PC” is a good thing, I don’t even know what you _mean_ by PC. But judging by how the President of the United States uses the term, I’d say that PC is a good thing because it allows us to call people on saying horribly misogynistic and nasty things. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/226 "2017-02-12T21:49:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > By dismissing it as “political correctness?” Because, contrary to the rest of your post, that’s why the term was created, and what it means: it’s a label people use to make them feel better about ignoring someone’s legitimate grievance. That’s not it at all. PC is nothing more than attempt censor speech and thought. Rightfully labeling PC as an illiberal tool is perfectly fair. Attempting to smear opponents of shrill social censorship is fallacious. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/227 "2017-02-12T22:20:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s not it at all. PC is nothing more than attempt censor speech and thought. Is saying “you shouldn’t call black people ‘nigger’” political correctness? Could you please _define_ the term you’re using? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/228 "2017-02-12T22:30:15Z")
Political correctness is no more real than the biological concept of race. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/229 "2017-02-12T22:44:30Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Is saying “you shouldn’t call black people ‘nigger’” political correctness? Could you please _define_ the term you’re using? I think that what he is trying to say, is that if someone wants to call black people “niggers”, then you are not allowed to say anything that might make them feel bad for using that term. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/230 "2017-02-12T22:56:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Conservatives are probably too busy working. Does this mean you think the narrative of economically insecure rural conservatives lashing out against liberal urban elites is a bunch of BS? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/231 "2017-02-12T23:08:45Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Is saying “you shouldn’t call black people ‘nigger’” political correctness? Could you please _define_ the term you’re using? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think that what he is trying to say, is that if someone wants to call black people “niggers”, then you are not allowed to say anything that might make them feel bad for using that term. I’ve already said what political correctness is. And you guys are free to inaccurately say whatever you wish. You know, freedom of speech and all that. I’m not part of the left wing mob that beats people for expressing ideas. I’m part of the pro freedom group that advocates people can speak as they wish. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/232 "2017-02-12T23:20:49Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’ve already said what political correctness is. And you guys are free to inaccurately say whatever you wish. You know, freedom of speech and all that. I’m not part of the left wing mob that beats people for expressing ideas. I’m part of the pro freedom group that advocates people can speak as they wish. The closest thing you’ve offered is this. Not much of a definition, but okay, we’ll roll with it. And yes, I _did_ go back through every single post you made in the thread just to check. 🙂 > [@octopus](#): > > The political correctness is the violent reaction to one deemed politically incorrect. And how do you enforce political correctness? Arson, beatings, intimidation, and rioting. This is the face of the intolerant modern left. So in other words, your definition of “political correctness” is _completely different_ from anyone else’s in this thread. It’s completely different from the common usage of political correctness. It excludes anything _except_ violent responses to free speech which is deemed “politically incorrect” (another term you _definitely_ haven’t defined; would you mind doing so?), and is therefore _exceedingly_ rare. You might as well say “The schnozzberry is the violent reaction to one deemed wingdangdoodle,” at least that way you wouldn’t be confusing as many people. But at least we can say with some certainty that none of the objections to Trump’s or Milo’s misogyny and bigotry that weren’t outright physically violent are “political correctness”. Great! We’re moving forward! :rolleyes: More to the point, though, this is _obviously_ not what **Miller** meant by the word, and _obviously_ not what the person **Miller** was responding to meant by the word, so this is like butting in to a conversation about rape and saying, “Okay, you guys are talking about rape, but I’ve redefined rape (in a way I’m not going to make clear), and according to _my_ definition, that’s not actually rape.” Except you don’t _explain_ that you’ve redefined the terms on the fly, so you leave us all guessing as to what the heck you’re actually talking about. Hence why the aforementioned rephrasing would confuse far less people. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/233 "2017-02-12T23:24:55Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The closest thing you’ve offered is this. Not much of a definition, but okay, we’ll roll with it. > > And yes, I _did_ go back through every single post you made in the thread just to check. 🙂 > > So in other words, your definition of “political correctness” is _completely different_ from anyone else’s in this thread. It’s completely different from the common usage of political correctness. It excludes anything _except_ violent responses to free speech which is deemed “politically incorrect” (another term you _definitely_ haven’t defined; would you mind doing so?), and is therefore _exceedingly_ rare. You might as well say “The schnozzberry is the violent reaction to one deemed wingdangdoodle,” at least that way you wouldn’t be confusing as many people. But at least we can say with some certainty that none of the objections to Trump’s or Milo’s misogyny and bigotry that weren’t outright physically violent are “political correctness”. Great! We’re moving forward! :rolleyes: > > More to the point, though, this is _obviously_ not what **Miller** meant by the word, and _obviously_ not what the person **Miller** was responding to meant by the word, so this is like butting in to a conversation about rape and saying, “Okay, you guys are talking about rape, but I’ve redefined rape (in a way I’m not going to make clear), and according to _my_ definition, that’s not actually rape.” Except you don’t _explain_ that you’ve redefined the terms on the fly, so you leave us all guessing as to what the heck you’re actually talking about. Hence why the aforementioned rephrasing would confuse far less people. 😉 What, precisely, is free speech? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/234 "2017-02-12T23:34:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m part of the pro freedom group that advocates people can speak as they wish. Unless that speech is calling people out for racist, bigoted, or just mean or rude things, in which case, you wish us to shut up. That’s not really freedom of speech, that’s wanting to be free to speak anything you want without consequence, and that’s a whole different thing. Unless your “beats people for expressing ideas” is meant to be taken literally, in which case, I would agree that using violence to squelch someone’s speech is wrong, but then you will have to point to the time in this thread where anyone has used violence to squelch speech. Good luck on that. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/235 "2017-02-12T23:36:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What, precisely, is free speech? I’d go by [amnesty international](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/free-speech-freedom-expression-human-right)’s definition, personally. I’m no legal scholar, and this is a complex and thorny issue. The main gist of “freedom of speech” is the ability to speak freely to convey ideas or information without fear of government reprisal or illegal (particularly violent) retribution. With a few obvious caveats - certain speech _must_ necessarily be restricted (national security, copyright for example) for society to function and freedom to speak does not demand that you be heard or that you be given a platform to speak from. That’d be the general gist of it. I have _no idea_ why you consider this question relevant. Given that you seem to have no objections to how I described your definition of political correctness, surely we can assume that the following are _not_ political correctness: - A university dropping a free yoga class because they were worried about “cultural appropriation” - This [South Park Christmas Play](https://vimeo.com/119408163) - Lynching someone for drawing Mohammed (hardly qualifies as “politically incorrect” in western countries, does it?) - A university sanctioning students for using “he” or “she” instead of “xe” or “they” (that is, sanctioning them within the university code of conduct, _not_ any particular legal bounds) Or am I missing something in your confusing definition? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/236 "2017-02-13T00:24:02Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’d go by [amnesty international](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/free-speech-freedom-expression-human-right)’s definition, personally. I’m no legal scholar, and this is a complex and thorny issue. > > The main gist of “freedom of speech” is the ability to speak freely to convey ideas or information without fear of government reprisal or illegal (particularly violent) retribution. > > With a few obvious caveats - certain speech _must_ necessarily be restricted (national security, copyright for example) for society to function and freedom to speak does not demand that you be heard or that you be given a platform to speak from. > > That’d be the general gist of it. > > I have _no idea_ why you consider this question relevant. Given that you seem to have no objections to how I described your definition of political correctness, surely we can assume that the following are _not_ political correctness: > > - A university dropping a free yoga class because they were worried about “cultural appropriation” > - This [South Park Christmas Play](https://vimeo.com/119408163) > - Lynching someone for drawing Mohammed (hardly qualifies as “politically incorrect” in western countries, does it?) > - A university sanctioning students for using “he” or “she” instead of “xe” or “they” (that is, sanctioning them within the university code of conduct, _not_ any particular legal bounds) > > Or am I missing something in your confusing definition? I don’t care about a precise definition for PC or it’s zealots. I’m not getting drawn into a pointless debate about definitions. All that matters is that the concept of PC is used by the unwashed illiberal hordes as a bludgeon to oppress. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/237 "2017-02-13T00:31:26Z")
The definition and usage of the phrase “political correctness” and “politically correct” has changed over history, since the first known usage in 1796. At various times, it has been used by fanatic groups, to delineate the behaviors required from citizens, in order to avoid the displeasure of the current government; it has been used by the Left in the last century, to jokingly remind each other NOT to go overboard; and it has been used most commonly since the latter half of the nineties, entirely by the Right, as a straw-man to attack, when they don’t want to directly excuse something they have been criticized for. ``` As can be seen above, the people who are most intent on attacking it, don't have any supporting examples of their opposition using the term, only themselves. They apply the term to anything that they can find, where someone calls for changes or actions that they don't like, to be made general policy, usually involving social situations. ``` The problems with the proposals which get referred to as “PC” by their opponents, are often quite real. However, by using the “anti-PC” attack, the people opposing them purposely attach the bad ideas to a host of others, as well as to specific groups of people who’s sensibilities they additionally want to discount and discard as invalid. THAT is the problem with the now VERY Politically Correct, Anti-Political Correctness Movement. While PRETENDING to champion freedom of thought and action, they do so by declaring that anyone who disagrees with them, should be ignored, not JUST in the case of the immediate issue at hand, but in their entirety. Thus, the fanatically ANTI-PC people, are every bit as much and more in to oppression as the people they have labeled as promoting “political correctness.” Speaking for myself: I have ALWAYS opposed anyone who sought to use tricks of language or misrepresentations of facts and history, to promote obviously distorted and negative personal agendas. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/238 "2017-02-13T00:35:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t care about a precise definition for PC or it’s zealots. I’m not getting drawn into a pointless debate about definitions. All that matters is that the concept of PC is used by the unwashed illiberal hordes as a bludgeon to oppress. If you’re unwilling to define your terms, Great Debates isn’t going to be a very interesting place for you to post. Your claims are nebulous and hand-wavey and utterly lacking in substance. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/239 "2017-02-13T01:39:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t care about a precise definition for PC or it’s zealots. I’m not getting drawn into a pointless debate about definitions. All that matters is that the concept of PC is used by the unwashed illiberal hordes as a bludgeon to oppress. “All that matters is that the concept of PC is used by the unwashed illiberal hordes as a bludgeon to oppress.” How did you zero in on it so accurately? Nothing anyone has said today has been more true. This is unusual for you. You said “illiberal” and not “liberal” so it looks like you have had some kind of spiritual and political awakening. Congratulations. Are you saying that the alt righties/ neofascists don’t wash because you have some kind of first hand testimony you want to give associated with your rebirth? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600/240 "2017-02-13T01:52:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t care about a precise definition for PC or it’s zealots. I’m not getting drawn into a pointless debate about definitions. All that matters is that the concept of PC is used by the unwashed illiberal hordes as a bludgeon to oppress. I’m curious what you’re actually criticizing, but if you’re not interested in providing any definitions or elaborating on what you’re disagreeing with, then there probably won’t be much point at further debating on the issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rehabilitating-political-correctness-s-negative-image/778600.md?page=13)